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RedRamage

What's wrong with the Offense?

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Nobody taken in the top 8 spots in that draft have even made a pro bowl yet.

Clay Matthews was probably the best player taken in the first round and he was taken at #26, FWIW.

Wouldn't we call those 8 players busts then, at least as it relates to their draft position?

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Every quarterback taken 1st overall shouldn't be ranked as the 17th overall QB in the league. He was picked #1 overall and you'd like to think that his play would measure up to that selection. Brady and Rodgers have both exceeded their selection spots, Stafford has preformed well under his expectations.

Qbs taken first overall recently: David Carr, Carson Palmer, Eli Manning, Alex Smith, Jamarcus Russel, Stafford, Sam Bradford, Cam Newton, Andrew Luck.

You have a flawed perception in general on draft position vs probability of greatness. It is higher for a number 1 pick, but not as high as it seems you are making it out to be.

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Wouldn't we call those 8 players busts then, at least as it relates to their draft position?

Would you call Stafford a bust? He is as old now as Rodgers was his first career season fwiw, and has already turned in 1 of the best 10 counting stat seasons for a QB ever.

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THey have GB 20th in pass protection, us 30th. Did you even read your own link?

Now take Jordy away from Rodgers too and then we can talk.

Rodgers without Jordy would still do better in my estimation than Stafford without Calvin. Stafford is as mediocre as they come without Calvin in the game. I think Rodgers could-would do a better job working in his guys like Lacy (when not ruining my fantasy season), Cobb, Adams, Boykin without Nelson than Stafford with Tate, Bell, Broyles, Ebron, Pettigrew.

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Would you call Stafford a bust? He is as old now as Rodgers was his first career season fwiw, and has already turned in 1 of the best 10 counting stat seasons for a QB ever.

For where he was picked relative to the results he has produced, yes, partially. I say partially because he's had other issues to deal with like lousy coaching, Titus Young Sr., etc. In four full seasons he has one playoff appearance, in a season where his team didn't beat one team with a winning record and had a string of late game miracles. Rodgers had a Super Bowl and three playoff appearances in his first four as a starter.

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Qbs taken first overall recently: David Carr, Carson Palmer, Eli Manning, Alex Smith, Jamarcus Russel, Stafford, Sam Bradford, Cam Newton, Andrew Luck.

You have a flawed perception in general on draft position vs probability of greatness. It is higher for a number 1 pick, but not as high as it seems you are making it out to be.

What is your expectation of Stafford then and has he lived up to it?

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For where he was picked relative to the results he has produced, yes, partially. I say partially because he's had other issues to deal with like lousy coaching, Titus Young Sr., etc. In four full seasons he has one playoff appearance, in a season where his team didn't beat one team with a winning record and had a string of late game miracles. Rodgers had a Super Bowl and three playoff appearances in his first four as a starter.

Whose age 26 career would you rather have? Stafford or Rodgers? First years as a starter don't apply for Rodgers. He got to spend years learning as a backup and inherited a team that went 13-3.

Stafford inherited a team that went 0-16. Once again, you place too much emphasis on the power of being a number 1 pick. If they should be as good as you claim, then every year the team with the first pick would vault into a playoff spot.

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What is your expectation of Stafford then and has he lived up to it?

My expectation of Stafford now is to be a top 12-10QB in the NFL with top 3 potential. Good enough to win a Superbowl. I can't say if he has lived up to it, since he is still pretty young for a QB. But I would say he is on track to live up to it, yes.

When he was drafted, I didn't have much of an expectation, because the draft is largely a crapshoot where you can do little things to increase your odds that I didn't believe the lions did well at all at the time. I still don't know if I think they do.

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It's also hard to guess initially what the expectations should be for someone who inherits the worst team in the history of the sport as a rookie. But I would not call him anything near a bust. To me, that is ridiculous.

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Whose age 26 career would you rather have? Stafford or Rodgers? First years as a starter don't apply for Rodgers. He got to spend years learning as a backup and inherited a team that went 13-3.

Stafford inherited a team that went 0-16. Once again, you place too much emphasis on the power of being a number 1 pick. If they should be as good as you claim, then every year the team with the first pick would vault into a playoff spot.

Maybe I place to much emphasis on Stafford's selection spot, but to me, he is proving that it is clear not every #1 pick vaults a team into a playoff spot. He's proving that he is overrated, relative to his draft position. I expected, with all the hype about the golden arm that he had, him to be more than just a top 10 quarterback in the league. I expected to see a guy who could take a flawed team and take flawed players around him and mask those deficiencies with great performances. I also expected a couple of playoff appearances and a win thrown in there. I've gotten few of my expectations met because he hasn't done those things.

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Maybe I place to much emphasis on Stafford's selection spot, but to me, he is proving that it is clear not every #1 pick vaults a team into a playoff spot. He's proving that he is overrated, relative to his draft position. I expected, with all the hype about the golden arm that he had, him to be more than just a top 10 quarterback in the league. I expected to see a guy who could take a flawed team and take flawed players around him and mask those deficiencies with great performances. I also expected a couple of playoff appearances and a win thrown in there. I've gotten few of my expectations met because he hasn't done those things.

I think your expectations were the best possible scenario. In my opinion, the only QBs who in modern times who can show they can do what you said are Peyton Manning, Brees, and Luck. And Brees did it after having years in San Deigo, and I'm not sure the colts were really a bad team (I believe they tanked to get luck, yes). To me, it sounds like your expectation were my wildest football fantasy, that we drafted Peyton Manning 2.

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Maybe I place to much emphasis on Stafford's selection spot, but to me, he is proving that it is clear not every #1 pick vaults a team into a playoff spot. He's proving that he is overrated, relative to his draft position. I expected, with all the hype about the golden arm that he had, him to be more than just a top 10 quarterback in the league. I expected to see a guy who could take a flawed team and take flawed players around him and mask those deficiencies with great performances. I also expected a couple of playoff appearances and a win thrown in there. I've gotten few of my expectations met because he hasn't done those things.

He still has the golden arm, but he's just one piece of the puzzle. Putting all that on a quarterback is a bit myopic.

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If your expectation is that a qb taken #1 overall be as good or better than P. Manning, Rodgers, or Brees, then most drafts do not have a qb worthy of being drafted #1.

I'd go so far as to say at least some drafts do not produce a player as valuable as those guys, so by that rationale nobody should be picked #1 in those drafts.

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Stafford has not been a bust at all. If you want to see what a bust looks like, look at mark sanchez or sam bradford or ej manuel...

Or kate upton.

But not matt stafford. He's been good and occasionally very good and is still young. He may never be tom brady, but not many are.

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Every quarterback taken 1st overall shouldn't be ranked as the 17th overall QB in the league. He was picked #1 overall and you'd like to think that his play would measure up to that selection. Brady and Rodgers have both exceeded their selection spots, Stafford has preformed well under his expectations.

With that criteria every single PLAYER picked #1 should never in their career be ranked anything less than #1 at that position?

Sorry that will never, ever happen.

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Everyone says we can't expect Matt Stafford to be the leagues best QB. Well, can we at least expect him to have a passer rating better than 21st and a total QBR better than 20th?

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Everyone says we can't expect Matt Stafford to be the leagues best QB. Well, can we at least expect him to have a passer rating better than 21st and a total QBR better than 20th?

No. You are being ridiculous. I think top 30 should be okay. He is young...

Just kidding. Yes, I think he will easily be top half before its all said and done. I would expect once he gets comfortable in this system he either winds up top 10 QB in the league, or he strings together a number of games that we would expect from a franchise QB.

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I think too much attention is paid to his draft position when, IMO, the major factor is what he is paid. I do understand that under the old CBA there wasn't much that could be done to curb the wild rookie salaries but he has signed multiple contract extensions since then and he hasn't lived up to those extensions. Now, to be fair, neither have QBs like Flacco either (although his was understandable coming off a Super Bowl victory where he played out of his mind).

I think Stafford is an average quarterback who puts up big numbers due to his high volume of throws. He isn't nearly as accurate or mobile as I would prefer, doesn't seem to excel at making a secondary or tertiary read, and focuses too much on a single WR. On another forum I frequent, I saw a Vikings fan make a comparison that I largely agree with. Stafford is a lot like Culpepper (but less agile and accurate), he looks good because of those around him, not the other way around. Culpepper was seen as average to above average because he was throwing to Chris Carter and Randy Moss. As soon as he lost those game changing WR Culpepper was nothing, even before his injury in 2005 he was awful. Stafford, without CJ, looks bad. IMO, there are certain QBs who make those around them look better (Manning, Brady, Brees, Luck, etc.) and then the rest need some help. Stafford, as we have seen, needs more help to look good than many other QBs.

Edit: For the record, I wouldn't consider him a bust. He just isn't that type of game changing QB you hope for when you draft a guy #1 overall. But, as has been discussed, not many live up to that expectation anyway.

Edited by EchO

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I think too much attention is paid to his draft position when, IMO, the major factor is what he is paid. I do understand that under the old CBA there wasn't much that could be done to curb the wild rookie salaries but he has signed multiple contract extensions since then and he hasn't lived up to those extensions. Now, to be fair, neither have QBs like Flacco either (although his was understandable coming off a Super Bowl victory where he played out of his mind).

I think Stafford is an average quarterback who puts up big numbers due to his high volume of throws. He isn't nearly as accurate or mobile as I would prefer, doesn't seem to excel at making a secondary or tertiary read, and focuses too much on a single WR. On another forum I frequent, I saw a Vikings fan make a comparison that I largely agree with. Stafford is a lot like Culpepper (but less agile and accurate), he looks good because of those around him, not the other way around. Culpepper was seen as average to above average because he was throwing to Chris Carter and Randy Moss. As soon as he lost those game changing WR Culpepper was nothing, even before his injury in 2005 he was awful. Stafford, without CJ, looks bad. IMO, there are certain QBs who make those around them look better (Manning, Brady, Brees, Luck, etc.) and then the rest need some help. Stafford, as we have seen, needs more help to look good than many other QBs.

Edit: For the record, I wouldn't consider him a bust. He just isn't that type of game changing QB you hope for when you draft a guy #1 overall. But, as has been discussed, not many live up to that expectation anyway.

I tend to agree with most of this. I think the thing that separates Stafford (and makes him all the more frustrating) is he has shown flashes of being able to put it all together. It seems like he is holding the lions in limbo. As in, he is too good to move on from, but he doesn't seem to be able to move to next level for whatever reason. Every year is the year that we expect Stafford to take the next step.

Either way, we'll always have the mic'ed up browns game. One of my favorite sports moments.

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I tend to agree with most of this. I think the thing that separates Stafford (and makes him all the more frustrating) is he has shown flashes of being able to put it all together. It seems like he is holding the lions in limbo. As in, he is too good to move on from, but he doesn't seem to be able to move to next level for whatever reason. Every year is the year that we expect Stafford to take the next step.

Either way, we'll always have the mic'ed up browns game. One of my favorite sports moments.

I agree. I don't think we should go out and draft another QB in the top 1-2 rounds, but I wouldn't mind them seeing drafting a QB somewhere in rounds 3-5 and give him the Rodgers' treatment. I thought Washington was silly for trading everything to get RG3 and then drafting Cousins, looks like Cousins could be the better value long term, nothing wrong with getting a legit backup that could push Stafford a bit.

Edited by EchO

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I agree. I don't think we should go out and draft another QB in the top 1-2 rounds, but I wouldn't mind them seeing drafting a QB somewhere in rounds 3-5 and give him the Rodgers' treatment. I thought Washington was silly for trading everything to get RG3 and then drafting Cousins, looks like Cousins could be the better value long term, nothing wrong with getting a legit backup that could push Stafford a bit.

Every Bledsoe needs a Brady? :wink:

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Everyone says we can't expect Matt Stafford to be the leagues best QB. Well, can we at least expect him to have a passer rating better than 21st and a total QBR better than 20th?

A week ago he was 10th in QBR. Lets not get carried away. The guy was top 6 in yards,TDs, 1st downs passed for and 3rd down conversion % last year. 7th highest QB on PFF. He also ranked lower than I'd like in QBR and passer rating, so I'm not saying there are no issues, but its not like he hasn't performed at all.

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I agree. I don't think we should go out and draft another QB in the top 1-2 rounds, but I wouldn't mind them seeing drafting a QB somewhere in rounds 3-5 and give him the Rodgers' treatment. I thought Washington was silly for trading everything to get RG3 and then drafting Cousins, looks like Cousins could be the better value long term, nothing wrong with getting a legit backup that could push Stafford a bit.

Cousins is awful, but not the point. I wouldn't have minded drafting a QB this year, nor will I next.

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