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belcherboy

Fire Hoke??

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I would give Hoke through 2015 (unless the wheels just fall off this season, which I'm not anticipating). That gives him an entire team of his own recruits. And if we aren't back to where we should be in 2015, that would be the end of the line for me.

What is concerning to me, other than everything about this team, is the fact that we still don't have a QB. I don't know how long Hoke is going to force an ill-equipped QB into a system them doesn't appear to suit him, but we really should be grooming a capable QB for next year in my opinion.

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That team was #5 overall when they were beaten by App St, and there were serious talk of them being title contenders that year. They had Henne, Hart, and Long, all seniors (iirc). They also got completely dominated by Oregon right after App State. In the Big House.

What's the purpose of this?

First, being #5 in the preseason poll is pretty irrelevant. I guess it speaks to how well regarded they were.

But you remember that season. App state was a thing that should not have happened. Absolutely not. But it was just an upset. It happens. The 2006 team barely hung on to beat ball state.

Oregon was arguably the best team in the country that year. Dixon was on his way to winning the heisman before he got hurt at the end.

Michigan then ripped off win after win. They followed it up with back to back losses to Wisconsin and osu.

I don't remember the Wisconsin game.

The osu game was sad. Henne couldn't even throw. I think mallet actually had to come in for a couple series.

Then of course we all saw the Florida game.

It was not that bad of a season in hindsight, to me, given the Henne injuries late in the season. No shame in losing to Oregon that year.

And honestly the app state thing didn't bother me after the shock wore off. It's was really just one of those upsets that happens. I don't think it was a sign of the end times.

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What's the purpose of this?

Discussing it as the beginning of the downfall, per the open letter's claim otherwise.

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I'm not sure why you wouldn't judge a 4th year coach and his team by wins/losses. I don't care if they are the most likable recruits in the country, they just got shut out and beat by over 4 TD's and haven't played well against their main rivals for most of this coaches tenure at Michigan.

IMO, this was the year that Michigan was suppose to show some promise. A senior QB with a lot of experience and a large group of 4 and 5 star sophomores and juniors. Maybe they will turn it around but I think MSU is a little better than ND and OSU may be better by seasons end. We play both of them on the road. Wins/losses count doubly when Michigan is playing OSU and MSU. Seeing this is Hokes 4th year, that is a lot of losses against very few wins. Regardless, what real signature wins does Hoke have against teams that finish the season in the top 25? I'm not sure there is much on Hoke's resume that warrants keeping him at this point.

As I said, I do find it distasteful to judge CFB like the NFL where it is everybody's profession to win. I think there should be more to it as a college coach.

At any rate, ignoring that aspect, judging by W/L is the most simplistic way possible to go about analyzing a coach. It's at the tip of the dog's tail. Almost all of Hoke's job as head coach is to recruit, coordinate the O/D/ST, and manage the game. That all a part of the dog that wags the tail. When I analyze what he's done with those aspects, if I like the job he's done, why would I want him fired? Obviously he did a horrendous job with the O by hiring Borges, and that really hurt the results last year, but that has been corrected and I'm not going to fire someone for punitive reasons.

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That team was #5 overall when they were beaten by App St, and there were serious talk of them being title contenders that year. They had Henne, Hart, and Long, all seniors (iirc). They also got completely dominated by Oregon right after App State. In the Big House.

I know what you are saying, but it really wasn't as bad a year as many fans make it out to be IMO. Iirc they finished 2nd in the big ten and beat a Tebow led Florida team in their bowl game that year. That is a pretty darn good season, even if they were overrated in the preseason rankings. Still, I agree that App St was the worst loss in my lifetime.

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As I said, I do find it distasteful to judge CFB like the NFL where it is everybody's profession to win. I think there should be more to it as a college coach.

At any rate, ignoring that aspect, judging by W/L is the most simplistic way possible to go about analyzing a coach. It's at the tip of the dog's tail. Almost all of Hoke's job as head coach is to recruit, coordinate the O/D/ST, and manage the game. That all a part of the dog that wags the tail. When I analyze what he's done with those aspects, if I like the job he's done, why would I want him fired? Obviously he did a horrendous job with the O by hiring Borges, and that really hurt the results last year, but that has been corrected and I'm not going to fire someone for punitive reasons.

I still don't understand the way you judge college coaches. I'm not sure Hoke's teams have won a truly "big game" against a team that finished the season top 25 in a long time. I LOVE his recruiting, but just like Ron Zook in Florida, just because you can recruit, doesn't mean you can run a successful football team.

Is there anything besides recruiting that you feel Hoke has done well the past few seasons? I really liked the guy coming in, and thought he was going to be here for a long time after his first year winning 11 games, but he has a horrible B1G conference record, and hasn't really won a big game since his first season IMO.

Maybe you can talk me off the ledge, but if he fails miserably against MSU and/or OSU this year, I think it's time to move on. Just my two cents.

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He's put a solid defense out there compared to what he was left. I could buy an argument that says its worth seeing whether Nussmeier and Morris can change the tides on offense. I'm pretty upset about his inability to put a good OL together, but I also know its something he prioritizes so I"m hoping it comes around sooner than later.

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He's put a solid defense out there compared to what he was left. I could buy an argument that says its worth seeing whether Nussmeier and Morris can change the tides on offense. I'm pretty upset about his inability to put a good OL together, but I also know its something he prioritizes so I"m hoping it comes around sooner than later.

Would you be as willing to wait to see on how it pans out if Hoke had followed Lloyd Carr rather than Rich Rodriguez?

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I think you've got to give a college coach 5 years, especially when transitioning from a completely different system, which was a departure from the system before that.

Regardless, I would certain give a guy more than 3 years plus 2 games.

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I still don't understand the way you judge college coaches. I'm not sure Hoke's teams have won a truly "big game" against a team that finished the season top 25 in a long time. I LOVE his recruiting, but just like Ron Zook in Florida, just because you can recruit, doesn't mean you can run a successful football team.

Considering Hoke's first full class are Sophomores and Juniors right now, I'm not sure it's time yet to compare him to Zook. He's still dealing with challenges he inherited, like having 1 Senior on the offensive side of the ball (Gardner), and 1 upperclassman non-walk-on o-lineman (Miller). Not sure if Zook inherited issues as severe as that at Florida.

That's not to say that we should excuse the offense being a complete tire fire again, but we shouldn't expect them to be a juggernaut yet either.

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As much as I don't want to downplay what happened vs ND, it's still one game.

There were some positives. The front seven on defense played well. Golson lit up the secondary, sure. The offensive line wasn't overmatched.

It seemed like the failures were mostly decision making and not being physically overmatched.

I think a lot of criticism is built up frustration over the last couple years. The frustration is fair, but I don't think "it's year 4 and we haven't seen improvement" criticisms are off base.

Years 1-3 are in the past. It's a new team. They might up being bad. I don't know. But it's only been two games.

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I still don't understand the way you judge college coaches. I'm not sure Hoke's teams have won a truly "big game" against a team that finished the season top 25 in a long time. I LOVE his recruiting, but just like Ron Zook in Florida, just because you can recruit, doesn't mean you can run a successful football team.

Is there anything besides recruiting that you feel Hoke has done well the past few seasons? I really liked the guy coming in, and thought he was going to be here for a long time after his first year winning 11 games, but he has a horrible B1G conference record, and hasn't really won a big game since his first season IMO.

Maybe you can talk me off the ledge, but if he fails miserably against MSU and/or OSU this year, I think it's time to move on. Just my two cents.

Winning is the ultimate goal, but I don't expect coaches or any employee to work magic. It's not win X or else, it's what are you doing to win. It's the process of winning, which is cliche, but other than a more competent OC from the beginning I'm not sure what Hoke has done to de-rail the process.

As I've said, I think he did great getting Mattison. I think the hire of Nussmeier will be a very good one. And he's kept the guys he's recruited in the program, there's more than twice as many guys with 3+ years left than there are upper-classmen (generally RR recruits). We all knew this year was not going to be great based on the schedule and the OL alone, but I think Hoke has positioned the team to do well on the field for 2015.

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Let's not give up hope for this year quite yet.

Aside from msu, there isn't a team left on the schedule that looks like a difficult match up.

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Let's not give up hope for this year quite yet.

Aside from msu, there isn't a team left on the schedule that looks like a difficult match up.

I don't disagree, but that speaks more to the strength of schedule than anything else. I think a few more throws to Funchess and some refinement/health with the new philosophy secondary and they should pretty handily win 7 more games. Probably 8 with Penn St.

I don't expect them to eat OSU on the road tho, even without Braxton.

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I understand what you all are saying about giving a coach a fair chance. I won't be too upset if they keep him, but I just don't see the hope of this team yet. I only bring up the "Fire Hoke?" question because there is little hope that they don't get trounced by MSU and maybe even OSU. What is Hoke's B1G record right now? With 3 years of highly rated recruits, compared to the recruits that MSU and several other B1G teams have gotten over that time period, how are we such big underdogs in the B1G right now?

I like Mattison, but has the defense gotten better since his first year? With three highly rated recruting classes on campus, why aren't we seeing a marked improvement by this team? I know it's 2 games in, but is there anyone on the MB that truly believes Michigan will beat MSU and OSU on the road this year? Even if they beat everyone else on their schedule, how can this be considered a good season when we lose to the only 2 quality opponents left on the schedule? For Hoke to have three full recruiting classes on the field and lose (one by over 4 TD's) to your 3 biggest rivals (conference and recruiting), seems to me to be a HORRIBLE season. If MSU ends up being the real deal (we'll see how they handle ND), we could be blown out by our biggest recruiting threat. That shouldn't happen especially when comparing the ranking of recruits on both squads IMO.

If Michigan can keep bringing in top 15 recruiting classes, I don't care if they give Hoke a 5th year, but if the handwriting is on the wall (losing lopsided games to your rivals is a good sign of this IMO), why not just start over again. Us fans would HATE it, but I haven't seen a big game these past 2 seasons that makes me think Hoke isn't a sub par coach. I'm sure I'm forgetting one, but I can think of a few bad losses.

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I understand what you all are saying about giving a coach a fair chance. I won't be too upset if they keep him, but I just don't see the hope of this team yet. I only bring up the "Fire Hoke?" question because there is little hope that they don't get trounced by MSU and maybe even OSU. What is Hoke's B1G record right now? With 3 years of highly rated recruits, compared to the recruits that MSU and several other B1G teams have gotten over that time period, how are we such big underdogs in the B1G right now?

I like Mattison, but has the defense gotten better since his first year? With three highly rated recruting classes on campus, why aren't we seeing a marked improvement by this team? I know it's 2 games in, but is there anyone on the MB that truly believes Michigan will beat MSU and OSU on the road this year? Even if they beat everyone else on their schedule, how can this be considered a good season when we lose to the only 2 quality opponents left on the schedule? For Hoke to have three full recruiting classes on the field and lose (one by over 4 TD's) to your 3 biggest rivals (conference and recruiting), seems to me to be a HORRIBLE season. If MSU ends up being the real deal (we'll see how they handle ND), we could be blown out by our biggest recruiting threat. That shouldn't happen especially when comparing the ranking of recruits on both squads IMO.

If Michigan can keep bringing in top 15 recruiting classes, I don't care if they give Hoke a 5th year, but if the handwriting is on the wall (losing lopsided games to your rivals is a good sign of this IMO), why not just start over again. Us fans would HATE it, but I haven't seen a big game these past 2 seasons that makes me think Hoke isn't a sub par coach. I'm sure I'm forgetting one, but I can think of a few bad losses.

Our rivals have been excellent when we've lost to them. I can't say there's been any game that we've lost that we should have won. I posted the stat about the records of our rivals the season we've lost to them, they've generally been top 5 teams. So I don't think that's something that you fire a guy over unless you want a huge sea change which would mean more another several years of this before we get to see how that pans out. Throughout the Hoke tenure I'd say there's been 4 bad losses, maybe slightly over par for the course.

And like I've said I don't think judging coaches only on W/L is very prudent. That's like saying you don't like the performance of your car so you just buy another one. It's probably better to figure out what's wrong with it and get it fixed. If the problem is something inherent with the vehicle, then you go ahead and swap it out. I don't see anything inherently wrong with Hoke so I'm not spending money on a new car.

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And I would say most of the bad losses/performances came last year. That's not an excuse, but an explanation. Everyone knows how bad the line and running game were last year.

The year before that, denard got hurt in the Nebraska game that we could have won. We did beat msu that year, but they weren't very good.

Looking at 2012, the losses were:

Road Bama - no big deal

Road Notre dame - they made the Nc game

Road neb - denard injury

Road osu - they were ranked 4

Road South Carolina - last minute loss to a top 10 team

I don't see the big deal.

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I understand what you all are saying about giving a coach a fair chance. I won't be too upset if they keep him, but I just don't see the hope of this team yet. I only bring up the "Fire Hoke?" question because there is little hope that they don't get trounced by MSU and maybe even OSU. What is Hoke's B1G record right now? With 3 years of highly rated recruits, compared to the recruits that MSU and several other B1G teams have gotten over that time period, how are we such big underdogs in the B1G right now?

I like Mattison, but has the defense gotten better since his first year? With three highly rated recruting classes on campus, why aren't we seeing a marked improvement by this team? I know it's 2 games in, but is there anyone on the MB that truly believes Michigan will beat MSU and OSU on the road this year? Even if they beat everyone else on their schedule, how can this be considered a good season when we lose to the only 2 quality opponents left on the schedule? For Hoke to have three full recruiting classes on the field and lose (one by over 4 TD's) to your 3 biggest rivals (conference and recruiting), seems to me to be a HORRIBLE season. If MSU ends up being the real deal (we'll see how they handle ND), we could be blown out by our biggest recruiting threat. That shouldn't happen especially when comparing the ranking of recruits on both squads IMO.

If Michigan can keep bringing in top 15 recruiting classes, I don't care if they give Hoke a 5th year, but if the handwriting is on the wall (losing lopsided games to your rivals is a good sign of this IMO), why not just start over again. Us fans would HATE it, but I haven't seen a big game these past 2 seasons that makes me think Hoke isn't a sub par coach. I'm sure I'm forgetting one, but I can think of a few bad losses.

Am I just old, or are there really short memories with Mattison? After all, this is the guy who fled to Notre Dame after 1996, and then with virtually the same players Jim Herrman has the country's best defense. Why is Mattison a great get now?

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And I would say most of the bad losses/performances came last year. That's not an excuse, but an explanation. Everyone knows how bad the line and running game were last year.

The year before that, denard got hurt in the Nebraska game that we could have won. We did beat msu that year, but they weren't very good.

Looking at 2012, the losses were:

Road Bama - no big deal

Road Notre dame - they made the Nc game

Road neb - denard injury

Road osu - they were ranked 4

Road South Carolina - last minute loss to a top 10 team

I don't see the big deal.

The problem is that IMO if Michigan played an identical schedule as the one you posted, the results would still likely be the same. Two top 15 recruiting classes since the 2012 season and the results are likely to still be the same?

I wish I could see Hoke with the same optimism you guys have. Unfortunately the only difference I see so far from 2012 and this team is that it is filled with Hoke's players now. I really do hope that this team gets inspired to change things after that ND loss and my concern is dismissed once the B1G schedule kicks in.

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I was looking back on the discussion about firing RR and came across this gem!

I think harbaugh is a great coach. What he has done at Stanford is truly impressive. That being said, he is not the only option for Michigan if they decide to make a change. I'm not happy with the current state of the program, but I don't think what has happened over the last three seasons necessitates a change quite yet. I don't think any coach, harbaugh included, is likely to do a better job next year and in the years to come. Could a new coach do better than Rodriguez could do next year? Sure. A new coach could also do worse. I think when you hire a coach there is a commitment by the school to give the coach time to build the program in his way. Once he's had that chance, then you can remove him if it isn't working. Michigan is not immune to the issues that arise in a coaching change.

That was a good call back then. Maybe a change isn't such a good idea. :(

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I'm not saying hoke is a good coach. But I don't know that it's true that the team is regressing under him. The ND game sucked, but I think it's too early to pass any sort of judgment.

Did anyone expect better than 9-3 this year?

There are still far too many unknowns at this point.

I keep reading about all these wonderful recruiting classes, for the past 4 years, at what point do they start taking over, right now to me it looks like Michigan is out manned, where is Kyle Kallis and the other o-line recruits. Jake Ryan/Frank Clark/Countess/Gardner/Norfleet are still all Rich Rod guys, where are their replacements, Hoke gets them on paper it appears but they don't seem to perform or get any better, I blame the coaching staff for that, and in college football a coaching staff is a big deal.

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In the end, Miami game is a shrugger to me. Glad they won it, don't think it tells us much, did see many of the same issues with this team since last year at times in the game.

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In the end, Miami game is a shrugger to me. Glad they won it, don't think it tells us much, did see many of the same issues with this team since last year at times in the game.

Still saw Denard...I mean Devon, making bad decisions. Just because he got away with only one actual pick doesn't make me feel better about of a couple of others that should have/would have been picks against better DBs. Much like last season, even when he was lucky enough not to succeed in throwing the ball to the other team, is was not always for lack of a fair effort to so.

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Gardner's turnovers are too much of a problem for us to overcome. He doesn't make enough plays to counter them. Let Morris play at this point. Let us at least see Hoke with a QB who fits his style before he goes out.

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I keep reading about all these wonderful recruiting classes, for the past 4 years, at what point do they start taking over, right now to me it looks like Michigan is out manned, where is Kyle Kallis and the other o-line recruits. Jake Ryan/Frank Clark/Countess/Gardner/Norfleet are still all Rich Rod guys, where are their replacements, Hoke gets them on paper it appears but they don't seem to perform or get any better, I blame the coaching staff for that, and in college football a coaching staff is a big deal.

I guess I don't understand why the recruiting classes keep getting brought up. First, they weren't "great" in my opinion. I don't remember the actual rankings, but I feel like they were in the mid teens. Second, it takes multiple classes in a row to field a full team. You can't really rely on them until you have four in a row, especially for a transitioning program. You can't just flip a switch and become a championship contender. You have to build the team. Fortunately Michigan has enough big program clout to get good players even when they have been down.

I think this is the first year where you can start looking back on the classes and expect them to bear fruit. But you also have to see most of the season before you can pass judgment.

The ND game was a bummer, but I don't think it's anywhere close to enough to be able to pass any sort of judgment.

It's hard to be patient, I know. But I don't think there is anything else you can do.

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