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Fire Hoke??

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You know they lost 4 other games besides those 2 games. It was a terrible year 3 for RR. I'm not sure of any other major program that wouldn't have fired him.

You were the one that brought up the final three games, dude. Of course I remember the other losses. It was a 7-5 season with a terrible bowl loss.

It was not a good team that year. What's your point? Aren't we talking about how they would have fared in 2011 and beyond?

The denard heavy hoke-coached version in 2011 was a pretty good team. Has hoke done anything since to make you think that it was his great coaching that turned them into a BCS team?

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You were the one that brought up the final three games, dude. Of course I remember the other losses. It was a 7-5 season with a terrible bowl loss.

It was not a good team that year. What's your point? Aren't we talking about how they would have fared in 2011 and beyond?

It was year 3 and he had an abysmal record, and an even worse B1G record for his entire tenure at Michigan, why would they keep him? Name me one big win RicRod had at Michigan?

The denard heavy hoke-coached version in 2011 was a pretty good team. Has hoke done anything since to make you think that it was his great coaching that turned them into a BCS team?

What ranked teams did they beat that year? Teams ranked at the end of the year. It was a good team playing a bad schedule IMO. It would have done nothing but prolonged at bad tenure of RR, if we go by everything he had done up until that point. Why are ppl gushing over RR now??

This isn't about how bad Hoke is, it's about how bad both Hoke and Rr have been at Michigan.

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Yes, RR would still be here. And, when RR was fired I thought he wasn't a top tier coach, but I was wrong about that, he absolutely is. He just went into Eugene and beat the ducks with Arizona.

I am not sure that the Ducks are as good as ranked. Even the announcers were saying last night that their defense was suspect and their offensive line wasn't great.

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It was year 3 and he had an abysmal record, and an even worse B1G record for his entire tenure at Michigan, why would they keep him? Name me one big win RicRod had at Michigan?

What ranked teams did they beat that year? Teams ranked at the end of the year. It was a good team playing a bad schedule IMO. It would have done nothing but prolonged at bad tenure of RR, if we go by everything he had done up until that point. Why are ppl gushing over RR now??

This isn't about how bad Hoke is, it's about how bad both Hoke and Rr have been at Michigan.

He wasn't a good fit at Michigan. Between the violations, the academic ineligibles he recruited, the attrition and his general inability to navigate the politics of a school with Michigan's money and tradition he was just bad. If any one read some of the depositions involving the WVU departure I would have a hard time believing they wouldn't have a more dismal view of him.

I don't regret that he's gone regardless of what he may accomplish at Arizona.

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I am not sure that the Ducks are as good as ranked. Even the announcers were saying last night that their defense was suspect and their offensive line wasn't great.

But give credit where it is due. Arizona hasn't lost and just beat the #2 country on the road. Wouldn't we love to beat MSU on the road, even if they had a suspect offensive line?

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I am not sure that the Ducks are as good as ranked. Even the announcers were saying last night that their defense was suspect and their offensive line wasn't great.

The bottom line in my mind is that RR averaged 5 wins a year at Michigan for 3 years. For some reason after RR wins against Oregon, some think that it was a sign that RR is a great coach and would be in his 7th year at Michigan if they had simply given him another year. I just don't see why they would think that. His record at Michigan, his defensive ranking, the fact he got annihilated by his rivals in his final year, and that his recruiting rankings were falling were enough reason for me to see why they fired him.

I hope he blows it up in the Pac 12 and has great success! If he would have won 8 games at Michigan one season (I think he has done it twice now at Arizona in his first 3 years), he would most definitely have been given another year IMO, maybe 2.

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No one is saying that RR wasn't bad his first 3 years, not one person is saying that. Some are just musing what would have been if he had stayed. Based on his record at WV and now what he has done at Arizona it's hard to conclude that he would have remained awful. And let's not pretend that the background noise didn't effect the job RR was able to do.

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No one is saying that RR wasn't bad his first 3 years, not one person is saying that. Some are just musing what would have been if he had stayed. Based on his record at WV and now what he has done at Arizona it's hard to conclude that he would have remained awful. And let's not pretend that the background noise didn't effect the job RR was able to do.

I'm just trying to think of a major program that had a coach win 15 games in a three year period that kept that coach. If there are any, how much longer did they keep that coach? I don't blame Michigan for canning him after 3 years, nor do I blame them for his lack of success. He blew his opportunity here and didn't deserve another year. I imagine most top tier programs would have done the same.

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It's becoming clear the culture at Michigan is as much if not a greater issue than the quality of head coaches. This whole "Michigan Man" idea is arrogant, antiquated, and quite frankly becoming an asinine concept. The "Michigan Way" should be to compete in a competent, non-embarrassing way -- not hang onto a quote from Bo 30 years ago that's been taken completely out of context to fit the narratives of those who seek power and prestige.

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It's becoming clear the culture at Michigan is as much if not a greater issue than the quality of head coaches. This whole "Michigan Man" idea is arrogant, antiquated, and quite frankly becoming an asinine concept. The "Michigan Way" should be to compete in a competent, non-embarrassing way -- not hang onto a quote from Bo 30 years ago that's been taken completely out of context to fit the narratives of those who seek power and prestige.

And this is a big reason why Rodriguez failed at Michigan. The "Michigan Man" mafia could never get behind a folksy guy that ran a spread offense, and worked to undermine him from day 1. And now we have a guy that is trotting out a couple of plodding 230 pound backs without any sort of vertical passing attack - despite having personnel for a vertical passing attack. That was never Michigan football. Hoke is trying to run a mythical Michigan Man offense that never actually existed. I think the whole reason why our offense is screwed up right now is because the culture at Michigan is ****ed up, and Hoke and Brandon share a lot of the blame in that.

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But give credit where it is due. Arizona hasn't lost and just beat the #2 country on the road. Wouldn't we love to beat MSU on the road, even if they had a suspect offensive line?

I do give him credit. It actually had me wondering more about the State result.

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And this is a big reason why Rodriguez failed at Michigan. The "Michigan Man" mafia could never get behind a folksy guy that ran a spread offense, and worked to undermine him from day 1. And now we have a guy that is trotting out a couple of plodding 230 pound backs without any sort of vertical passing attack - despite having personnel for a vertical passing attack. That was never Michigan football. Hoke is trying to run a mythical Michigan Man offense that never actually existed. I think the whole reason why our offense is screwed up right now is because the culture at Michigan is ****ed up, and Hoke and Brandon share a lot of the blame in that.

So should McDonald's quit selling hamburgers? Michigan has a tradition that has survived generations and can continue to survive while evolving. That takes a savvy leader and Rodriguez chose to call it "hyper bowl" early on. Hoke has used it to recruit pretty successfully. And by the way, the same Michigan mafia went after Carr in a bug way when he was named head coach. He was known as the down river hill billy.

I have to laugh though the people who rant against Brandon for breaking tradition, rant against Hoke for not breaking tradition. I don't think a Michigan Man runs any particular offense...those comments were about defense. Same thing Bo said as Carr's defenses regressed.

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It's becoming clear the culture at Michigan is as much if not a greater issue than the quality of head coaches. This whole "Michigan Man" idea is arrogant, antiquated, and quite frankly becoming an asinine concept. The "Michigan Way" should be to compete in a competent, non-embarrassing way -- not hang onto a quote from Bo 30 years ago that's been taken completely out of context to fit the narratives of those who seek power and prestige.

I'd like to think Bo would have never thought that his "Michigan Man" quote was some sort of edict about who could coach. All he was saying was that he wasn't going to let someone coach the basketball team that had already accepted another job with another school. If I remember correctly.

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So should McDonald's quit selling hamburgers? Michigan has a tradition that has survived generations and can continue to survive while evolving. That takes a savvy leader and Rodriguez chose to call it "hyper bowl" early on. Hoke has used it to recruit pretty successfully. And by the way, the same Michigan mafia went after Carr in a bug way when he was named head coach. He was known as the down river hill billy.

Right, it can continue to survive while evolving. I'm not seeing the evolving. I'm seeing the least imaginative Michigan offense in well over a decade, despite the desperate need for some imagination.

There's were also rumors of former players steering recruits away from Michigan during Rodriguez's tenure. I don't think Carr had to ever deal with that level of unrest.

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I'd like to think Bo would have never thought that his "Michigan Man" quote was some sort of edict about who could coach. All he was saying was that he wasn't going to let someone coach the basketball team that had already accepted another job with another school. If I remember correctly.

That's precisely what Bo meant. It's time for a big wig at Michigan to finally stand up and say it -- preferably Brandon's replacement.

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I find it quite interesting how those who are negative on Rodriguez seem to be so to a point that they are heavily invested in that view point carrying the day. I don't know, I'm pretty convinced Robinson is a very serious threat to win the Heisman if Rodriguez stays.

But while I certainly think Hoke and Brandon deserve some blame, I think a guy who is getting a pass but I think could have kept things from coming unraveled is Loyd Carr. Schembechler passed away, and so right or wrong, Carr was kind of the "grand old man" of the program. If he steps up and says "RR is our coach, let's get behind him and keep the success going," a lot of the crap doesn't happen. But he didn't do that. He was conspicuous by his silence, IMHO. There's no way he did not know players were steering recruits away, etc. He could have said very simply "Bo wouldn't want that." I can't seriously imagine Schembechler would stand for the undermining, even if he disagreed with the hire.

I think Carr could have put a lid on all of this, and his role in it should not be ignored.

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Right, it can continue to survive while evolving. I'm not seeing the evolving. I'm seeing the least imaginative Michigan offense in well over a decade, despite the desperate need for some imagination.

There's were also rumors of former players steering recruits away from Michigan during Rodriguez's tenure. I don't think Carr had to ever deal with that level of unrest.

IIRC, the rumor was that Carr steered Mallet away from RichRod.

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I find it quite interesting how those who are negative on Rodriguez seem to be so to a point that they are heavily invested in that view point carrying the day. I don't know, I'm pretty convinced Robinson is a very serious threat to win the Heisman if Rodriguez stays.

But while I certainly think Hoke and Brandon deserve some blame, I think a guy who is getting a pass but I think could have kept things from coming unraveled is Loyd Carr. Schembechler passed away, and so right or wrong, Carr was kind of the "grand old man" of the program. If he steps up and says "RR is our coach, let's get behind him and keep the success going," a lot of the crap doesn't happen. But he didn't do that. He was conspicuous by his silence, IMHO. There's no way he did not know players were steering recruits away, etc. He could have said very simply "Bo wouldn't want that." I can't seriously imagine Schembechler would stand for the undermining, even if he disagreed with the hire.

I think Carr could have put a lid on all of this, and his role in it should not be ignored.

I agree w/ a lot of what you say here. While I never heard Carr support RR publicly, I heard rumors of Carr undermining RR, and of course, there's Carr chillin in Ferentz' box when Michigan went to Kinnick.

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That's precisely what Bo meant. It's time for a big wig at Michigan to finally stand up and say it -- preferably Brandon's replacement.

Ironically, Frieder was a Michigan Alum, and Fisher was not.

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I'd like to think Bo would have never thought that his "Michigan Man" quote was some sort of edict about who could coach. All he was saying was that he wasn't going to let someone coach the basketball team that had already accepted another job with another school. If I remember correctly.

I guess I always assumed that's what was meant.

But on the outside looking in, it appears that that doesn't hold the same meaning anymore. Particularly with how Rodriguez was handled early on while trying to change the identity of the team. I get that defense was an afterthought and agree that wasn't wise on his part. But trying to install a different offense that had been successful elsewhere but didn't conform to what Michigan had done before was for some ridiculous reason just too much for some to take. Things evolve, but Michigan is/was apparently above that.

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I agree w/ a lot of what you say here. While I never heard Carr support RR publicly, I heard rumors of Carr undermining RR, and of course, there's Carr chillin in Ferentz' box when Michigan went to Kinnick.

Maybe Carr believed RR was bad for the program or just a bad FB coach. Aside from internal institutional issues I would not even guess about, just on Xs and Os ground I can easily imagine a long time D coach like Lloyd thinking any coach trying to run RRs weird (and ineffective) defense was a bad fit. Why should he support him if that were the case?

Now if he had been stabbing RR in the back in private without taking responsibility for his opposition, that's bad taste for sure, but nothing has ever risen past the level of rumor AFAIK.

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Maybe Carr believed RR was bad for the program or just a bad FB coach. Aside from internal institutional issues I would not even guess about, just on Xs and Os ground I can easily imagine a long time D coach like Lloyd thinking any coach trying to run RRs weird (and ineffective) defense was a bad fit. Why should he support him if that were the case?

Now if he had been stabbing RR in the back in private without taking responsibility for his opposition, that's bad taste for sure, but nothing has ever risen past the level of rumor AFAIK.

Carr is a complete idiot if he thought Rodriguez was a bad football coach. Maybe he didn't like his system, and for sure, it was a radical approach compared to U of M's history, but a bad football coach? Only a fool could believe that.

I would consider signing the scholarship releases for a number of players on your last day before retirement to be some serious undermining. While I dislike the fact a coach can leave whenever he wants and a player can't, if Carr is really the Michigan Man he claims to be, he lets Rodriguez talk to those guys. He doesn't release the players before RR gets the chance.

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Maybe Carr believed RR was bad for the program or just a bad FB coach. Aside from internal institutional issues I would not even guess about, just on Xs and Os ground I can easily imagine a long time D coach like Lloyd thinking any coach trying to run RRs weird (and ineffective) defense was a bad fit. Why should he support him if that were the case?

Now if he had been stabbing RR in the back in private without taking responsibility for his opposition, that's bad taste for sure, but nothing has ever risen past the level of rumor AFAIK.

Carr made it pretty clear that he didn't want to hover over the new coach but would be there if Rodriguez asked. But who knows what happened. RR was not at all equipped to navigate the political waters. He was a guy who built fan bases and produced donors not managed them. He stepped on toes and insulted people without even realizing what he was doing.

Carr wasn't exactly a savvy navigator either but he had Bo to protect him. And when Bo died I think Carr knew he didn't have it in himself to be left alone on the front line. He couldn't be Rodriguez' Bo, that just isn't who he is.

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IIRC, the rumor was that Carr steered Mallet away from RichRod.

Mallet and Carr didn't exactly get along either. The rumor was he was transferring throughout the season.

Still I think it would be hard to tell kids who saw 4-5 years in a pro-style offense as the best way to showcase their NFL talent that they shouldn't do what's best for their dreams.

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Mallet and Carr didn't exactly get along either. The rumor was he was transferring throughout the season.

Still I think it would be hard to tell kids who saw 4-5 years in a pro-style offense as the best way to showcase their NFL talent that they shouldn't do what's best for their dreams.

Agree. I'd read the scholarship release as a matter of philosophy for Carr - not having that much to do with RR personally.

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