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belcherboy

Fire Hoke??

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Looking at the Michigan law, it specifically states youth athletics and youths throughout, so I assume that is why it doesn't apply to collegiate athletics.

Regardless, I don't think anyone is arguing against the idea someone was responsible for spotting and communicating to Hoke. Actually, I'd argue all staff should be keeping an eye out for concussions given how relatively frequent hard hits are.

Independent of that, the head coach is the one who ultimately must and will take final responsibility for letting Shane play after receiving a concussion. The buck stops with him. And in today's environment, that is the attitude the general public is going to take with regards to this issue, and I personally think it appropriate and fair.

I have no doubt the public will hold him responsible but that doesn't mean he's responsible unless he overrode a medical decision or created an atmosphere that silenced those responsible. Nobody should want a coach responsible. Coaches don't typically go out on the field when there is an injury and they don't chase a player down on the sidelines to make sure he's being examined. As Nussmeirer said, a coaches eyes follow the ball, not 11 people on the field.

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I completely disagree.

The head coach, at any level and in any league, bears at least some level of responsibility for the health of the players he uses and is the person in charge on game day. if the coach doesn't know a player isn't injured because he is too occupied with something else, then he needs to make sure his staff is on it.

Saying Hoke's staff didn't support Hoke well enough can explain why it was missed, but still does not reflect well on the staff Hoke put together, and reflects poorly on him as a consequence.

We should absolutely want coaches to be held accountable if and when a player's injury is made worse because they were used while injured.

Absolving coaches from that responsibility will only serve to give rise to coaches claiming after the fact they didn't know a player was hurt when they misuse someone in a misguided attempt to win.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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I completely disagree.

The head coach, at any level and in any league, bears at least some level of responsibility for the health of the players he uses and is the person in charge on game day. if the coach doesn't know a player isn't injured because he is too occupied with something else, then he needs to make sure his staff is on it.

Saying Hoke's staff didn't support Hoke well enough can explain why it was missed, but still does not reflect well on the staff Hoke put together, and reflects poorly on him as a consequence.

We should absolutely want coaches to be held accountable if and when a player's injury is made worse because they were used while injured.

Absolving coaches from that responsibility will only serve to give rise to coaches claiming after the fact they didn't know a player was hurt when they misuse someone in a misguided attempt to win.

We will have to disagree. Of course I want the head coach to be dedicated to the well being of his players but I don't want him entrusted with the decision to seek treatment or to remove a player from action. I see it just the opposite than you, if the coach has the ultimate responsibility, it could lead to decisions based on the heat of the moment. I want the medical team dedicated to one thing, independent of the coaching staff. If a player could risk further injury he should be taken out of the game and the coach advised, not consulted.

Hoke is not responsible for the hiring of the medical staff. No coach in the NCAA is to my understanding. If he has ignored them or tried to influence their decisions then that's an entirely different matter. If he is responsible for the number, responsibility or access that too is a different matter.

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We will have to disagree. Of course I want the head coach to be dedicated to the well being of his players but I don't want him entrusted with the decision to seek treatment or to remove a player from action. I see it just the opposite than you, if the coach has the ultimate responsibility, it could lead to decisions based on the heat of the moment. I want the medical team dedicated to one thing, independent of the coaching staff. If a player could risk further injury he should be taken out of the game and the coach advised, not consulted.

Hoke is not responsible for the hiring of the medical staff. No coach in the NCAA is to my understanding. If he has ignored them or tried to influence their decisions then that's an entirely different matter. If he is responsible for the number, responsibility or access that too is a different matter.

So is the training staff in a position to see the action on the field? Are they able to stand along with the team on the sideline, or are they generally buried behind coaches & players and only called upon when needed? Honest question, I've never really paid attention to this.

I agree with you about the separation of coaches and medical staff. They do, however, need to work in concert to an extent. That extent probably begins and ends with bringing up medical issues to the medical staff and then notifying the coaching staff if a player can/cannot return.

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The head coach already is entrusted with the decision to remove a player from action.

Holding him accountable for not removing a player who is hurt is merely a recognition of that fact.

If the medical staff isn't communicating with the coaches, then the coach needs to straighten that out with the medical staff, and failing that, go to the AD and get it rectified.

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And, again, coaches are expected to be able to recognize symptoms of concussions.

I don't think it needs to be a medical professional making the decision.

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And, again, coaches are expected to be able to recognize symptoms of concussions.

I don't think it needs to be a medical professional making the decision.

How many coaches, including trainers, are there? Someone saw this. Multiple someones saw this.

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One would think, which suggests communication on the staff isn't where we should want (or really require) it to be.

And I think the head coach has to drive that. It comes with the territory.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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How many coaches, including trainers, are there? Someone saw this. Multiple someones saw this.

This is the type of question I find much more relevant. The natural thing is to follow the ball so it seems you almost have to have assignments. Nussmeirer was communicating with the booth and claims nobody alerted him. I also wonder if this was a rare sequence of events. If Morris had stayed down the med team would have tended to him and probably removed him. Then add his ankle which had him limping and the so called stumble doesn't look as ominous. Then he's replaced so it looks like he's out of the game anyway.

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I freaking love this parody account on Twitter:

Coach Dave Brandon ‏@CoachBrandonAD 19m19 minutes ago

Why would we need Brady? MT @FootballScoop Strangest thing I’ve heard about Brandon is he watches film with the coordinators but not Brady.

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Meanwhile, Rich Rod and Arizona just beat Oregon on the road.

Might serve as a lesson regarding premature firing of a coach. RR had things going in the right direction which benefited Coach Hoke in year one.

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RR did NOT have things going in the right direction. He had an historically pathetic defensive football team, & refused help. Brady Hoke may not be the answer, but let's not revise history.

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RR did NOT have things going in the right direction. He had an historically pathetic defensive football team, & refused help. Brady Hoke may not be the answer, but let's not revise history.

That's ridiculous. He refused help?

Instead of firing the guy maybe they should have just put up the money to bring casteel in.

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Might serve as a lesson regarding premature firing of a coach. RR had things going in the right direction which benefited Coach Hoke in year one.

It definitely serves as a lesson that you don't fire the guy that invented the zone read who has a proven track record of success after three seasons when the previous regime was about as opposite you get from that offense.

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It definitely serves as a lesson that you don't fire the guy that invented the zone read who has a proven track record of success after three seasons when the previous regime was about as opposite you get from that offense.

I liked RR, and loved our offense, but I think you guys give him WAY too much credit. I'll give you the "proven track record of success" when RR does it in a good conference. IMO, there was little to nothing to show that the team was headed in the "right direction". RR's last 3 games at Michigan he lost by an average of 3 TD's. IMO, there was ZERO signs that his team was going anywhere with him coaching (especially with a defense ranked at the very bottom of the B1G nearly every year he coach at UM.)

If the next coach at Michigan comes to AA and wins 10+ games, I'm not going to immediately say, "we shouldn't have given up on Hoke, he was going in the right direction." Maybe I'll be proven wrong about RR, but I don't see much more success out of him than an occasional big win here and there, and a top 15 ranking every few years. I don't hate the guy, but I think he is pretty one dimensional as a coach.

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I liked RR, and loved our offense, but I think you guys give him WAY too much credit. I'll give you the "proven track record of success" when RR does it in a good conference. IMO, there was little to nothing to show that the team was headed in the "right direction". RR's last 3 games at Michigan he lost by an average of 3 TD's. IMO, there was ZERO signs that his team was going anywhere with him coaching (especially with a defense ranked at the very bottom of the B1G nearly every year he coach at UM.)

If the next coach at Michigan comes to AA and wins 10+ games, I'm not going to immediately say, "we shouldn't have given up on Hoke, he was going in the right direction." Maybe I'll be proven wrong about RR, but I don't see much more success out of him than an occasional big win here and there, and a top 15 ranking every few years. I don't hate the guy, but I think he is pretty one dimensional as a coach.

Hoke has gotten worse every year. The best year he has was with Rich's players. Does that mean Hoke knew how to coach better? Or does it mean that Hoke had a better defensive scheme? But Brady was supposed have these great, great recruiting classes every year - and what has he done with them? Not much.

Rich is a better coach than Brady and it's not even close. But Rich didn't get supported, had a lot of people in the Michigan Mafia backstabbing him. Then he got defensive and stubborn and made it worse.

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Hoke has gotten worse every year. The best year he has was with Rich's players. Does that mean Hoke knew how to coach better? Or does it mean that Hoke had a better defensive scheme? But Brady was supposed have these great, great recruiting classes every year - and what has he done with them? Not much.

Rich is a better coach than Brady and it's not even close. But Rich didn't get supported, had a lot of people in the Michigan Mafia backstabbing him. Then he got defensive and stubborn and made it worse.

I'm not arguing that RR wasn't a better coach, but can you honestly say you think RR would still be in AA if given another year or two? RR is not a top tier program coach IMO, and Michigan is still a top tier program. Firing RR was the right thing to do and I think it is short sighted to compare him to Hoke. Neither should have ever coached Michigan.

I was hoping for great things from both, but both were bad enough to deserve getting fired. I guess your ex starts to look pretty good when your current girlfriend is an absolute mess. You just forget the bad things when comparing them to someone else.

Edited by belcherboy

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I think if dave brandon had given RR a stronger vote of confidence and RR fired Greg Robinson and brought in casteel that we would be in great shape right now.

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I'm not arguing that RR wasn't a better coach, but can you honestly say you think RR would still be in AA if given another year or two? RR is not a top tier program coach IMO, and Michigan is still a top tier program. Firing RR was the right thing to do and I think it is short sighted to compare him to Hoke. Neither should have ever coached Michigan.

Yes, RR would still be here. And, when RR was fired I thought he wasn't a top tier coach, but I was wrong about that, he absolutely is. He just went into Eugene and beat the ducks with Arizona.

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I think if dave brandon had given RR a stronger vote of confidence and RR fired Greg Robinson and brought in casteel that we would be in great shape right now.

Are you just ignoring his last year?

RR's final three games for Michigan:

Wisconsin L 48-28

@ OSU L 37-7

Bowl Miss St L 52-14

Other notable loss:

MSU L 34-17

He was known for his offense but IMO it was a gimmick that is hot and cold. Either it's rolling and your winning games 67-65 ( the Illinois game that year) or you are losing by 3 TD's and barely moving the ball. That is why RR was fired in AA.

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I remember that wisconsin was the 6th ranked team when we played them and OSU was #8.

They weren't a great team that year. Denard was a sophomore. What's the problem?

I put very little stock into the bowl game, especially with RR all but fired at that point.

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I remember that wisconsin was the 6th ranked team when we played them and OSU was #8.

They weren't a great team that year. Denard was a sophomore. What's the problem?

I put very little stock into the bowl game, especially with RR all but fired at that point.

You know they lost 4 other games besides those 2 games. It was a terrible year 3 for RR. I'm not sure of any other major program that wouldn't have fired him.

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Yes, RR would still be here. And, when RR was fired I thought he wasn't a top tier coach, but I was wrong about that, he absolutely is. He just went into Eugene and beat the ducks with Arizona.

He beat Oregon last year too. Finished 8-5. maybe I'm wrong about him, but he was terrible at Michigan.

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