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Mr.TaterSalad

Should Kenny Holland Be Fired?

Should Kenny Holland Be Fired  

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  1. 1. Should Kenny Holland Be Fired



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I read the provided information.

The point being made is that independent of Babcock's appreciation for Luke's game / work ethic, Luke is not anything more than a depth player.

And only 25 years old...which was my original point. He's not going to be an offensive player, what you see is what you'll get. I appreciate that kind of player. They don't need another player like him, but they need at least one rat on the team.

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I guess I misunderstood your original point.

Hopefully the Wings can find a rat that contributes to the team in an area outside of hustle, there are a ton of players out there that will hustle for a chance in the NHL. I have to imagine there are a handful of players in Grand Rapids even that would bring more as a fourth line winger than Glendening.

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And only 25 years old...which was my original point. He's not going to be an offensive player, what you see is what you'll get. I appreciate that kind of player. They don't need another player like him, but they need at least one rat on the team.

He is young and a hard worker.

No disrespect to Luke, but that player really isn't that hard to acquire or all that valuable.

But I agree he fills a role.

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So what is Kenny's big off-season plan...........To resign Grade A bum, Dan Cleary. Don't worry though, this squads a guy away from the Cup cuzzz in the NHL, anything can happen. Great job Kenny, you've out done yourself again!

Edited by Mr.TaterSalad

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I have a hard time calling Dan Cleary a bum. He's not a bum - he's just old and kind of worn out. He was a very good role player - at best and he's "good in the room". But this move is a head scratcher. They bring him back at 1.5 million to be a bench guy? I am in the NO column as far as firing Kenny Holland, but if they turn around and sign Bertuzzi next, I am going to have to change that to a YES>

Sports is not the real world. Sometimes you gotta let your buddies go.

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Today, right now, Dan Cleary is the definition of a bum. You don't know if he'll be healthy and when he is he gives you no production and is a liability to the team's puck possession. And if you send him to the AHL (let's be serious, nobody is claiming him) he carries dead weight on the salary cap. He is absolutely useless and is pushing Jurco to the AHL, the player who in 36 games (Cleary played 52) scored 8 goals... aka the entire point total for Cleary last season. He was a very useful player at one time, and a great player to have around. WAS. Now he's a bum. Holland can stick his loyalty and familiarity up his bum.

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Cleary is probably the worst player in a Detroit jersey in years. Worse than Neifi Perez.

The theory heard this morning is that his knee is better than since 2012 and they will need him as they are going to move young forwards for a RH shot Dman.

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I guess Holland promised him two years when he asked Philadelphia to let him out of that contract. They signed him to one for cap reasons, so here is year two - as promised. We just have to deal with it.

Jurco is probably going to be traded.

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I guess Holland promised him two years when he asked Philadelphia to let him out of that contract. They signed him to one for cap reasons, so here is year two - as promised. We just have to deal with it.

Jurco is probably going to be traded.

And when/if he is traded, that could be the trade that is Kenny's watershed moment. What I am calling for in this thread is to replace Kenny before he does something that is Joe Dumars damming to this franchise. He's going to do it, it's a question of WHEN not IF. Let's compare post-cap era Kenny to Dumars for a second, including only the negative aspects of Joe mind you, not Championship Joe.

Joe

-Overpaid and signed Charlie Villanueva at 5 years/$35 million

Kenny

-Overpaid and signed Stephen Weiss at 5 years/$24.5 million

Joe

-Overpaid and signed Ben Gordon at 5 years/$55 million

Kenny

-Signed a deal that was way too long giving Johan Franzen 11 years/$43.5 million and signed Henrik Zetterberg to an equally over-the-top 12 year deal in 2009, when Zetterberg was already 28.

Joe

-Traded Ben Gordon and a 1st round pick for Corey Maggette

Kenny

-Traded a 1st round pick for Kyle Quincey

Joe

-Signed Josh Smith to a terrible contract at 4 years/$54 million

Kenny

-Signed a trio of players including Jordin Tootoo, Mikael Samuelsson and Todd Bertuzzi to terrible contracts

Joe

-Brought back Ben Wallace and Chauncey Billups when they were clearly past their prime.

Kenny

-Brought back Todd Bertuzzi, Dan Cleary and Mikael Samuelsson when they were clearly past their primes.

Joe

-Wouldn't blow up and rebuild his aging squad when people said it was time to do so.

Kenny

-Won't blow up and rebuild his aging squad, when it seems time to do so. In-fact, tries to make his aging squad even older by shipping off prospects for more aging players. See Nyquist + Tatar for Bowmeester or Jarnkrok for Legwand as examples.

How many more terrible moves are we going to let Holland make before we start giving him the Joe Dumars treatment?

Edited by Mr.TaterSalad

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And when/if he is traded, that could be the trade that is Kenny's watershed moment. What I am calling for in this thread is to replace Kenny before he does something Joe Dumars damming to this franchise. He's going to do it, it's a question of WHEN not IF.

Depends on what he gets in return. You could see a couple of prospects go like Jurco and Smith, but you could see a couple of really good players in return. And don't underestimate the pull that Mike Babcock has in making roster moves. Remember, Babcock only played young guys when injuries left him no other choice. He probably wants Bertuzzi back. I know he wanted Cleary back.

I have to give Holland credit though, he made a "handshake agreement" with Cleary for that second year and he honored it - integrity is not a bad quality.

Edited by Motor City Sonics

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And when/if he is traded, that could be the trade that is Kenny's watershed moment. What I am calling for in this thread is to replace Kenny before he does something that is Joe Dumars damming to this franchise. He's going to do it, it's a question of WHEN not IF. Let's compare post-cap era Kenny to Dumars for a second, including only the negative aspects of Joe mind you, not Championship Joe.

How many more terrible moves are we going to let Holland make before we start giving him the Joe Dumars treatment?

I think you're stretching a bit to make him sound worse than what he really is. I'm not writing off Weiss yet, the trio you mention is a bunch of really small deals to fill out the roster, I think you had to keep Hank and that was the way to keep the cap hit low and hockey late first rounders aren't that valuable. Quincey has probably already provided us with more value than the average one. We'll see whether keeping him was the right move I guess. Then you start talking about a move that didn't even happen.

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Kenny

-Won't blow up and rebuild his aging squad, when it seems time to do so. In-fact, tries to make his aging squad even older by shipping off prospects for more aging players. See Nyquist + Tatar for Bowmeester or Jarnkrok for Legwand as examples.

Wait, what?

We get it, you don't like Holland. You've established that point clearly and forcefully. Presenting fantasy trades that Holland hasn't actually made to back up your opinion mostly hurts your argument.

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I don't see how talking about a move that didn't happen is making my argument invalid. I think he deserves flak for even dangling that offer out to Jay Feaster in the first place. The reason that move didn't happen isn't because Kenny didn't want it to, it was because Feaster is a moron for not taking it. In spite of all Kenny's efforts (trades, free agent signings) both Nyquist and Tatar are still wearing winged wheels.

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- Long contracts were a genius Holland invention. So good at establishing it that it led to a rule change.

- I have nothing against the Zetterberg contract

- He signed Franzen to a long contract when Franzen seemed like a breakout star and had been on fire in playoffs. If Holland had NOT signed Franzen and signed Hossa instead, at that time fans would have been furious. The Franzen contract still hasn't been that bad. He's been streaky but plays up to his contract dollars - so far.

- Weiss deal - that's hindsight. Most people in Detroit and around the league considered the Weiss signing a win at that time. Still might turn out OK

- You double count the Bertuzzi and Samuelsson mistakes. And Bertuzzi wasn't a huge mistake - just one year too many

- I don't see what good blowing up the Wings would have done. Might work better and more often in basketball. Look who they've transitioned into the lineup in the past couple of years - DeKeyser, Brendan Smith, Lashoff, Tatar, Glendenning, Nyquist, Sheahan, Jurco (partial). You need veteran balance. Now I would agree that you can get that through Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Kronwall and Alfredsson and that the signing of Cleary is awful as was Samuelsson before that. I'd like to know which available GM with an unblemished record you propose the Wings hire.

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Holland vs Dumars?

last 5 years:

5 trips to the playoffs, 3 to the second round, one after 400+ man/games lost to injury. One coach with a Stanely Cup and two olympic gold medals.

vs

5 lottery finishes, no winning percentages above 40%. Four coaches - all fired.

Comparing recent Red Wing and Piston GM performance - there isn't any.

Edited by Gehringer_2

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Would anyone consider Ray Shero a bad GM? Here is a guy who took a struggling Penguins franchise from the late 1990's through early 2000's and rebuilt the team. He drafted Malkin, Crosby, Stall, etc. He took the team to back-to-back Stanley Cup Final and was successful in one of those efforts. He has eight consecutive playoff appearances under his belt as well. Yet, in spite of all of that, the Penguins, their owner, franchise and fanbase had enough. Ray Shero got fired because people saw that team as underachieving and slipping into mediocrity on his watch. In Shero's case we have a guy that has been willing to give younger players a chance on his roster and not bury them behind the likes of Mikael Samuelsson, Jordin Totoo, David Legwand and Dan Cleary year in and out. I guess the same criticisms don't apply to Kenny though.

Edited by Mr.TaterSalad

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Malkin, Croaby, and Staal were 2nd, 1st, 2nd overall in consecutive years. You get minimal credit for that.

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Shero was gifted a lot of talent due to the team being so horrible and having such high draft picks. Otherwise I don't think he's been stellar or anything.

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Would anyone consider Ray Shero a bad GM? Here is a guy who took a struggling Penguins franchise from the late 1990's through early 2000's and rebuilt the team. He drafted Malkin, Crosby, Stall, etc. He took the team to back-to-back Stanley Cup Final and was successful in one of those efforts. He has eight consecutive playoff appearances under his belt as well. Yet, in spite of all of that, the Penguins, their owner, franchise and fanbase had enough. Ray Shero got fired because people saw that team as underachieving and slipping into mediocrity on his watch. In Shero's case we have a guy that has been willing to give younger players a chance on his roster and not bury them behind the likes of Mikael Samuelsson, Jordin Totoo, David Legwand and Dan Cleary year in and out. I guess the same criticisms don't apply to Kenny though.

If guys don't want to come here, what is he supposed to do, hire Luka Brazzi?

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