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Mr.TaterSalad

Should Kenny Holland Be Fired?

Should Kenny Holland Be Fired  

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  1. 1. Should Kenny Holland Be Fired



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If Kenny had panicked this year and signed a bunch of useless old guys like 2 years ago, then I'd be really concerned, but they didn't get their guys and didn't panic.

This team has a ton of young talent, we all know this. But they have more defensive prospects than most people realize - the issue is many of them are not NHL ready right now.

Xavier Ouellete

Ryan Sproul

Alexey Marechenko

Adam Almqvist

Nick Jensen

All of them are NHL-bound. Plus DeKeyser and Smith are already there. What they need is one more veteran to go into the Top 3. I am expecting they'll end up trading Smith and another prospect to get one. Forward-wise they probably need one more piece, one more scorer - we might have to wait until the trade deadline for that piece.

The Red Wings are rebuilding while still making the playoffs, not a bad place to be for a fan.

Ken Holland and staff have drafted very well. It took a massive amount of injuries for them to finally realize they need to play the young guys - it worked. I think a full season with Pavel (if he decides he wants to play) and Henrik healthy, and without Bertuzzi and Cleary (hopefully) clogging up spots could be exciting.

Derek Morris (if he is still available) is a right-handed veteran defensman........he's just not a Top 4 anymore.

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Kenny DID PANIC this year MCS. He traded his top center prospect and a 2nd round pick for a 3rd line center, who he didn't even have an intention of re-signing. If that doesn't fit the definition of panic than what does?

We've seen what Holland does when he is desperate, when he panics. Desperation brought us Clearly and Bertuzzi back. It also brought us Tootoo and Samuelsson and CocaCola and Legwand and Quincy. How many more Joe Dumars like moves do we have to watch Kenny make before we say enough? He already tried to trade Nyquist AND Tatar for Jay Bowmeester. What will you all say if/when he trades Mantha, Sproull-Olluett and a 1st for Tyler Myers? Do you want to wait for Kenny's watershed moment because it is coming! The blockbuster trade of epically stupid proportions is coming! The Jarnkrok deal was just the warm up and I say we nip it in the bud before it gets out of hand and either fire Kenny or move him somewhere else in the organization outside of direct player-personnel decisions.

Edited by Mr.TaterSalad

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Kenny DID PANIC this year MCS. He traded his top center prospect and a 2nd round pick for a 3rd line center, who he didn't even have an intention of re-signing. If that doesn't fit the definition of panic than what does?

We've seen what Holland does when he is desperate, when he panics. Desperation brought us Clearly and Bertuzzi back. It also brought us Tootoo and Samuelsson and CocaCola and Legwand and Quincy. How many more Joe Dumars like moves do we have to watch Kenny make before we say enough? He already tried to trade Nyquist AND Tatar for Jay Bowmeester. What will you all say if/when he trades Mantha, Sproull-Olluett and a 1st for Tyler Myers? Do you want to wait for Kenny's watershed moment because it is coming! The blockbuster trade of epically stupid proportions is coming! The Jarnkrok deal was just the warm up and I say we nip it in the bud before it gets out of hand and either fire Kenny or move him somewhere else in the organization outside of direct player-personnel decisions.

Speaking of panic ;) I don't like all the moves Ken Holland makes. But I realize he's trying to piece together a competitive team, with aging stars and group of promising young players that they've somehow managed to snag, despite the consistently low draft picks. I think Jarnkrok had fallen down the depth chart and there are rumors he's returning to Sweden. He's also really small and that was an issue. I think at the time we were without pretty much every one of our centers. He kind of had to make a move for a center at the last minute.

I wasn't really keen on adding Boyle, considering his age. He didn't look all that great in SJ this year. He's in decline mode. Ehrhoff kind of appeared at the last minute, and it seems like we offered him more money and a longer term. Niskanen went to a worse team than the Wings, so I don't think the Wings current level of competitiveness had anything to do with that. UFA's are usually way overpriced and usually not worth the asking price and most teams end up regretting them later.

I'm not seeing Holland trading ALL of those guys for Tyler Myers. But you have to give something to get something. He took a step back last season, but guys his size usually take a while to grow into their bodies (Pronger, Chara).

I'm hoping there will be some type of addition on the blue line. But I think Holland made an honest effort to upgrade and not make an overpayment, but we lost out for various reasons.

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Kenny DID PANIC this year MCS. He traded his top center prospect and a 2nd round pick for a 3rd line center, who he didn't even have an intention of re-signing. If that doesn't fit the definition of panic than what does?

We've seen what Holland does when he is desperate, when he panics. Desperation brought us Clearly and Bertuzzi back. It also brought us Tootoo and Samuelsson and CocaCola and Legwand and Quincy. How many more Joe Dumars like moves do we have to watch Kenny make before we say enough? He already tried to trade Nyquist AND Tatar for Jay Bowmeester. What will you all say if/when he trades Mantha, Sproull-Olluett and a 1st for Tyler Myers? Do you want to wait for Kenny's watershed moment because it is coming! The blockbuster trade of epically stupid proportions is coming! The Jarnkrok deal was just the warm up and I say we nip it in the bud before it gets out of hand and either fire Kenny or move him somewhere else in the organization outside of direct player-personnel decisions.

Okay, word was Calle Jarnkrok and his agent were making threats "Call me up now or I am going home". They were not going to let a player dictate when he gets called up and instead of letting him go for nothing after the season, they traded him for a rental. Yeah, he's gonna be really good, but if Calle dictates then every other prospect starts thinking the same way. The Tootoo, Samuelsson year was awful, but that's 2 years ago now. He was forced, by injury to play the young guys and I think now they are committed to the young guys. I don't think signing Derek Morris (who I think they will sign) is a panic move because he won't cost a lot.

People seem to think that the Red Wings were this team that for years and years signed free agents to build their Stanley Cup winning teams. They did not. They built those teams through drafting (heavily in Europe) and trades. The 2002 team got a couple of guys at the end of their careers, but the bulk of the Red Wings championship teams were not free agents, so not getting big time free agents is nothing really new for them. I think the biggest difference is not the salary cap, as much as it is almost every other team doing what the Red Wings used to do uniquely with their heavy scouting in Europe.

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There are fewer big names getting to free agency now than there were around 2002.

The Legwand move was made to make the playoffs. Not so much to keep alive "the streak" but to maintain the culture of winning. No coincidence that the Wings grabbed Alfie and Weiss the summer after they pushed the Hawks to 7 games. No coincidence that Boyle signed with the Rangers after they made the SCF. If the Wings had drawn a more favourable first round opponent and performed better, the gamble would have paid off. And I'm fine with that risk. Better than throwing in the towel and tanking.

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Shouldn't be a discussion IMO. He drafted all of the young talent that's arriving, the streak has stayed alive and we've stayed competitive the last 2 years while being destroyed by injuries.

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Shouldn't be a discussion IMO. He drafted all of the young talent that's arriving, the streak has stayed alive and we've stayed competitive the last 2 years while being destroyed by injuries.

Exactly, they are rebuilding while still making the playoffs. Not an easy way to do it.

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The Legwand move was made to make the playoffs. Not so much to keep alive "the streak" but to maintain the culture of winning. No coincidence that the Wings grabbed Alfie and Weiss the summer after they pushed the Hawks to 7 games. No coincidence that Boyle signed with the Rangers after they made the SCF. If the Wings had drawn a more favourable first round opponent and performed better, the gamble would have paid off. And I'm fine with that risk. Better than throwing in the towel and tanking.

If throwing in the towel meant you were getting young guys like Tomas Hertl, Derrick Pouliot and Teuvo Teravainen you still wouldn't be willing?

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Agreed LS...tanking is NEVER an option.

It will be intersting to see if Buffalo is a dominant team like Chicago and LA have been or if they can achieve the success of a Pittsburgh. The Sabres are in the middle of a tank and rebuild and the aforementioned teams are ones that all tanked and have found great success out of it.

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It will be intersting to see if Buffalo is a dominant team like Chicago and LA have been or if they can achieve the success of a Pittsburgh. The Sabres are in the middle of a tank and rebuild and the aforementioned teams are ones that all tanked and have found great success out of it.

Edmonton

New York Islanders

Florida

Winnipeg

Toronto

Those teams have been bad forever. Plenty of top draft picks among those teams. Don't even mention the Millen Lions.

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If throwing in the towel meant you were getting young guys like Tomas Hertl, Derrick Pouliot and Teuvo Teravainen you still wouldn't be willing?

Hertl went 17th overall. Teravainen went 18th overall. The Wings made the playoffs this year and drafted 15th overall. So tell me again why tank?

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8 of the 18 players drafted in the first 18 overall in the 2008 draft have been busts. No sure things:

Nikita Filiatov

Colin Wilson

Josh Bailey

Kyle Beach

Colten Teubert

Zach Boychuk

Joe Colborne

Chet Pickard

Here are some gems from the top 10 of the 2007 draft:

Thomas Hickey

Zach Hamill

Keaton Ellerby

Edited by lordstanley

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And I think "tanking" implies more than just being bad. To me it carries a connotation of being bad on purpose, or not trying to be good. So for those who wanted the Wings to tank at the trade deadline day. So you just give up on the season so that instead of drafting 15th overall if you make the playoffs like the Wings did you draft, say, 11th overall if you missed the playoffs by a few spots? 4 places in the draft is worth it? Makes no sense to me. I'm not sure any of Chicago, Pittsburgh or LA tanked in the sense I'm thinking of. That's giving them too much credit for having a plan. I think Chicago and Pittsburgh just had the good luck to be bad when amazing players like Crosby, Malkin and Toews were available (and that the Hawks were smart enough to draft Toews at #3 instead of other top 10 drafted players from that year like Derek Brassard, Peter Mueller or James Sheppard,

Edited by lordstanley

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Hertl went 17th overall. Teravainen went 18th overall. The Wings made the playoffs this year and drafted 15th overall. So tell me again why tank?

I honestly believe that this squad, as it is, will not make another Cup Final let alone a Conference Final. That's why I rebuild, to get something meaningful out of guys like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, etc. If you can't get meaningful wins now, get meaningful players for the future.

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Nope. Not even sure why this is a question.

True that. Ridiculous thread.

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True that. Ridiculous thread.

When Kenny overpays by sending one or two of Nyquist, Tatar, Mantha or Jurco and a 1st for a defensemen will this thread be ridiculous? He already tried to get rid of Nyquist and Tatar for Jay Bowmeester and the only thing that prevented that calamity from occurring was Jay Feaster's stupidity.

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When Kenny overpays by sending one or two of Nyquist, Tatar, Mantha or Jurco and a 1st for a defensemen will this thread be ridiculous

I would trade Tatar, Helm and a 2nd for Tyler Myers if Buffalo would accept.

Incidentally, what return would you consider acceptable if you were to trade a 34-year old Datsyuk? (making huge assumption for a second that Datsyuk would accept)

Edited by lordstanley

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I would trade Tatar, Helm and a 2nd for Tyler Myers if Buffalo would accept.

Incidentally, what return would you consider acceptable if you were to trade a 34-year old Datsyuk? (making huge assumption for a second that Datsyuk would accept)

If Jason Spezza can get a top prospect in return (Alex Chaisson) plus two more prospects and a second rounder than there is plenty of hope for both Datsyuk and Zetterberg netting us a good return. That keeps in mind their contracts and Hank's back problems. Bowmeester almost netted Calgary a top prospect (Nyquist) and another highly rated one (Tatar) and Legwand brought Nashville back a top prospect (Jarnkrok) and a 2nd rounder. If those deals can go or almost go through than Datsyuk and Zetterberg, should net us more than those deals did.

Now please excuse me while I play an ignorant game of armchair GM for a moment . . .

Datsyuk + Zetterberg value:

Ideal

A top prospect (center from one trade, defensemen from another) plus a 1st and a 3rd

or

A top prospect (center and defensemen), a solid prospect (wing or defensemen) plus a 2nd

Acceptable

2 top prospects (center from one trade, defensemen from another) plus a 2nd and 3rd

Example trade

Detroit + San Jose

Detroit: Tomas Hertl ©, 2015 1st + 3rd

San Jose: Henrik Zetterberg, 2015 4th

Kronwall value:

Ideal

Top prospect (defensemen or wing) plus a 1st

Acceptable

Top prospect (Defensemen or wing) plus a 3rd

Example trade

Detroit + Anaheim

Detroit: Shea Theodore (D) + 2015 3rd

Anaheim: Niklas Kronwall

Ericsson + Franzen value:

Ideal

Solid prospect (center or wing) plus a 3rd

Acceptable

2nd + 3rd round picks

Example Trade

Detroit + Tampa Bay

Detroit: Nikita Kucherov (RW) + 2015 3rd

Tampa Bay: Jonathan Ericsson + 2015 5th

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Taking my arm-chair GM'ing a step further you have room to move up on draft day and have multiple top picks. Am I lost in an NHL 15 fantasy land here? Maybe so! But I don't think that any of the trades-trade values I proposed are wildly unrealistic. The only thing that would make them wildly unrealistic would be if Zetterberg's back never gets better and it slows his game down permanently.

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