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John_Brian_K

Cleveland "Browns"?

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Perhaps this is all about the almighty dollar. Otherwise some of these native americans who are just so opposed to this name would go after all those high schools, including the one that is basically a tribe itself. But they don't- because presumably none of them are making any money printing sweatshirts...I mean, seriously, the hypocrisy is just a bit too much.

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Perhaps this is all about the almighty dollar. Otherwise some of these native americans who are just so opposed to this name would go after all those high schools, including the one that is basically a tribe itself. But they don't- because presumably none of them are making any money printing sweatshirts...I mean, seriously, the hypocrisy is just a bit too much.

because its easier and more productive go after one huge target then 62 little ones

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because its easier and more productive go after one huge target then 62 little ones

Or perhaps it's just a combination of the almighty dollar and hypocrisy.

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This is just the latest example of a polarizing liberal president politicizing what is typically a non political government office to get his way. The fact that he did it with the IRS should offend everyone, yet everyone seems to accept the fact that this is now acceptable behavior from a president. No one really cared when it first made it into the media awhile ago, so he's trying to get rid of the name using a back door approach through the patent office (yes, pun intended, Mr. bath house president).

Seriously, if this is such an outrage, why are there still 62 high schools across the US with the name "redskins" as their mascot? Why haven't so many native americans risen up and complained about all of those? To quote a recent article, "one school that still uses the nickname is Red Mesa High in Arizona, located on a Navajo reservation, and where 99.3 percent of its students are Native American." Seems a bit odd that they don't find it offensive. So why are the Washington redskins the only ones being singled out? Why is no one going after the Indians, the Chippewas, etc.? Because it's nothing more than politically motivated. I mean, seriously, even Bill Clinton hates this guy. You'd think he'd have better things to do than pick on a football team.

The term "Chippewa" is NOT equivalent to the term "Redskin". Please read about the history of both words and consider why someone might find Redskin offensive, and not find Chippewa offensive (hint: Chippewa are a large group of Native Americans, Redskin is an offensive term).

Secondly, your suggestion that Native Americans simultaneously protest all teams/schools that use the word Redskin is absurd. It is logical to attempt to change the name of a NFL team than to change the name of a middle school team. The impact is far greater. And by the way, do you know for a fact that Native Americans aren't protesting these names locally? You are operating on assumptions and bias.

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Good point.... what happens is do gooders like those who fought ro change hurons at EMU ruin it. They cry wolf. Not all indian mascots are created equal.

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I, for one, hope this thread continues. I look forward to watching people continue to argue patent and trademark law with a successful patent and trademark attorney.

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Mama and mother are similar enough to generate confusion as to the source of the food product, I would think.

Completely different situation.

Only in that both restaurants served food. Now this was at least 30 years ago, but my recollection from the time is that Mama's was forced to sue to cancel Mother's mark because the PTO thought they were confusingly similar. I don't *think* that it was a case where Mama's was published and Mother's objected. It went through several courts, state and federal. And as I recall, the decision at the end of the day was that Mama's had prior use of the mark and it belonged to them. The courts didn't affirm that they were confusingly similar, which would have been an issue had Mothers prevailed because they could then claim damages from Mama's infringement.

As for your various Texas school anecdotes, I can't comment.

UT has been pretty jealous of its trademarks. (Licenses are a cash cow.) And they were claiming rights to pretty much any representation of a longhorn. Settlements are a cash cow as well, and they have been successful in getting smaller companies to settle rather than go to the expense of litigation. But they've hit on a few who had the resources to fight back and ended up with rulings that have really limited them on the claims they can make.

TCU was a little school that nobody except its local hometown really paid much attention to it. Over time, the entire neighborhood became known by the name, "TCU." By the time the school woke up and discovered that they had something of value in their name which they needed to protect, the horse was already out of the barn and it was too late for them to enforce. There are all kinds of businesses over there with TCU's name incorporated into the name of the business or otherwise displayed on the building and in their advertisements, but which have nothing to do with the school. The school has been a little more diligent with its newer trademarks, slogans, etc. Lesson learned, I guess.

Edited by Melody

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Good point.... what happens is do gooders like those who fought ro change hurons at EMU ruin it. They cry wolf. Not all indian mascots are created equal.

I thought the change at Eastern was driven mostly by the NCAA wasn't it? They weren't giving schools like EMU much choice at the time - at least as I recollect. Again - at least as I recall, didn't EMU have support from at least some MI bands for using "Hurons"?

Edited by Gehringer_2

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I thought the change at Eastern was driven mostly by the NCAA wasn't it? They weren't giving schools like EMU much choice at the time - at least as I recollect. Again - at least as I recall, didn't EMU have support from at least some MI bands for using "Hurons"?

Wait, didn't that tribe fight for the enemy during the French and Indian war and then move to Canada? Kind of like the Vietnam War draft dodgers?

Actually, when I reflect on it, given the number of colleges these days that bar ROTC and recruiters on campus, seems like "draft dodgers," might be a school mascot to consider.

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Wait, didn't that tribe fight for the enemy during the French and Indian war and then move to Canada? Kind of like the Vietnam War draft dodgers?

...

I don't claim to know Native American geography well, and probably someone here can/will correct me, but yes, my understanding is that Hurons were Iroquois nation members, many other MI bands are Algonquin and they weren't always best buds.

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Well, the point that started this is completely stupid and off base because the Cleveland Browns were never named after a race of people, they were named after one guy, the team owner.

Find a better example than the Cleveland Browns.

The Factory Of Sadness.

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I'm not up on the northern tribes either. I vaguely remember doing some study of them with my daughter when she was homeschooling, but that was a long time ago. That little tidbit on the Huron stuck with me from some recent reading I was doing on the French and Indian War in connection with a genealogy I'm working on.

I'm more up on the southern tribes. Not so much their customs and tribe distinctives, more about political issues in the 18th, 19th, early 20th century because it's been relevant to my genealogy. "Why did this family move to Alabama in the 18th century then after a few years relocate to a less desirable geographic location in Mississippi?" Well ... turns out that the federal government sold the family some land that belonged, per treaty, to the Creek and the tribe managed to achieve a rare win in federal courts on the matter and they had to leave.

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I thought the change at Eastern was driven mostly by the NCAA wasn't it? They weren't giving schools like EMU much choice at the time - at least as I recollect. Again - at least as I recall, didn't EMU have support from at least some MI bands for using "Hurons"?

I thought it was just pressure from non victims. this was like 1991 or 1992. yez the hurons themselves were againat the change.

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Well, the point that started this is completely stupid and off base because the Cleveland Browns were never named after a race of people, they were named after one guy, the team owner.

Find a better example than the Cleveland Browns.

The Factory Of Sadness.

McBride, however, changed it to the Browns two months later, the result of another naming contest that suggested Browns, not after Paul Brown himself, but as a shortened version of Brown Bombers, a reference to the nickname of boxer Joe Louis.[15][16] Some sources say McBride was asked for thousands of dollars in compensation from a businessman who owned the rights to the name Cleveland Panthers, an earlier failed football team.[17]

I guess the 'Brown' Bomber was in reference to Joe Louis' eye color?

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I guess the 'Brown' Bomber was in reference to Joe Louis' eye color?

It isn't clear if the Browns were named after Paul Brown or Joe Louis or if it just worked on multiple levels. The history of many team names is anything but clear.

Regardless, nobody gives a crap because nobody associates the Browns with Joe Louis, good, bad or indifferent.

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I love that JBK's source is wikipedia. Really makes it that much funnier.

How Accurate Is Wikipedia?

In 2005, the peer-reviewed journal Nature asked scientists to compare Wikipedia's scientific articles to those in Encyclopaedia Britannica—"the most scholarly of encyclopedias," according to its own Wiki page. The comparison resulted in a tie; both references contained four serious errors among the 42 articles analyzed by experts.

And last year, a study published in the Journal of Clinical Oncology found that Wikipedia had the same level of accuracy and depth in its articles about 10 types of cancer as the Physician Data Query, a professionally edited database maintained by the National Cancer Institute.

I think we can say that you might not want to site Wikipedia for a journal article, but in same breathe don't dismiss the accuracy of what Wikipedia provides. Much of Wikipedia is directly linked to peer reviewed articles.

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It's accurate, sure, but still vulnerable to malicious attacks.

Anyway, this is the two sources used in the wiki:

  • Witham, Drake (November 7, 1995). "Whom are the Browns named after? THE BROWNS' MOVE TO BALTIMORE".Baltimore Sun. "Jack Clary writes in his book, "Cleveland Browns," that an effort was made to associate the team with a winner, and Joe Louis was in his prime."
  • Jump up^ Otis, Sam (August 16, 1945). "Brief News And Views on Sports". Cleveland Plain Dealer. p. 15. "... the new All-American Conference club of Arthur F. McBride did not fancy the selection of the prize committee that had thought Panthers would be just dandy, so they took matters into their own hands this week and chose a new nickname – the Browns.

Okay, cool. I can find some articles, too:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2011/12/were-the-cleveland-browns-named-after-boxer-joe-louis.html

In effect, the new team was Brown's team.

That much would be made evident by the results of a 1946 Cleveland Plains-Dealer poll to name the new franchise (with a $1,000 War Bond offered up as a prize for the fan who suggested the winning name). There is some dispute over the exact timeline of the naming of the franchise. What is clear is that after the poll, the team was going to be named the Cleveland Panthers, which was the nickname of a failed American Football League (AFL) franchise in Cleveland that only lasted a single season in 1926. The team was owned by General C. X. Zimmerman, who was the Vice-President of the AFL. The dispute is over how the Panthers was chosen. It was either that they simply were the highest vote-getter in the poll or that they were the second highest, with the highest vote-getter being "The Browns," chosen for Coach Brown.

Coach Brown did not like the idea of the team being named after him, so either way, the team was going to be named the Panthers (either because it was the top vote-getter or because Brown refused to have the team named after him). However, Zimmerman chimed in, noting that he still owned the name and that he would have to be compensated for its usage. The new franchise declined (I've seen some reports argue that Brown was not a fan of the team being named after a failed franchise anyways, which could be true, but I find it a bit hard to believe, since Brown later named the Cincinnati Bengals after a...wait for it...failed AFL franchise).

So Brown eventually bowed to popular sentiment and went with the Browns (I believe that there was the formality of having a second poll, but it was clear what was going to be the #1 choice). For years, though, Brown played it coy over whether the team was named after him, publicly offering up the Joe Louis suggestion. Also, after Brown left the organization in the 1960s after a dispute with new owner Art Modell, the Browns (under Modell) supported the Joe Louis version of the story (which would almost certainly be why the Washington Post reported as such in 1995, since that was the official position of the Browns organization at the time). Brown, though, never really held fast to the Louis position and late in his life he would cop to the fact that the team was named after him.

The Browns, meanwhile, support the "Named after Paul Brown" position. From the Browns' media guide:

Not a single entry in the contest listed Louis or his nickname as a reason for choosing ‘Browns.'

When you add in the fact that while yes, Jou Louis was quite famous at the time, he was not particularly associated with Cleveland at all (Louis was born in Alabama and became a famous boxer out of Detroit), then I think there's enough evidence to support the assertion (that both the Browns and the NFL itself both agree with now) that the team was, in fact, named after Paul Brown.

So for this legend, I say...

STATUS: False.

Why isn't this article sourced, too? It's pretty obvious there's no real, distinct, clear answer. Which is why I think it's funny that wikipedia, which sources two articles out of thousands, makes one claim when another could easily be made as well.

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It's accurate, sure, but still vulnerable to malicious attacks.

Agreed. I will bow out here, as I can't find much interest in how the browns got their name.

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Agreed. I will bow out here, as I can't find much interest in how the browns got their name.

Neither can I, haha.

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You did ask the question about the liquor store, right?

If another party copies artwork or a logo, that's also a copyright issue.

But the redskins logo itself was not cancelled.

Still, even without federal registration, the protection still exists. Common law and state law remedies are still available.

They key to any trademark claim is whether or not there is a likelihood confusion. That would unlikely in the case of a liquor store using the name of a high school or other sports team, unless the school or team is in the business of selling liquor at retail stores.

Light went on. D'oh! You are right. I'd forgotten state marks, esp for a high school who would unlikely be engaged in any sort of service or trade outside the state.

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I love it when people act like Fighting Irish is offensive.

Why couldn't it be? Consider the era when the name was adopted, and it could be highly offensive. Frankly, it's up to the Irish to decide.

What I find adorable is people deciding what or what is or is not offensive toward other people.... I did not know anyone could be offended by proxy, nor could we be the arbiters of what other groups find offensive. When Native Americans are still in debate whether the NFL team name Washington Redskins is offensive, perhaps all the liberal, white, guilt-driven outrage is a wee bit premature. That being said -- I'd prolly put the term Redskins closer to Fighting Irish than to the N-word on the spectrum of things that upset my sensibilities.

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