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davidsb

06/09/2014: Detroit Tigers (Porcello) at Chicago White Sox (Noesi) 8:10p

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I'm not a big new-age stat guy, so I will take you guys at your words with the WAR and stuff that proves he is a God-awful player in every way. But watching every game, I sure don't think Hunter is the main reason we are struggling. Avila's hitting under .220. Until recently, Castellanos was swinging at pitches he couldn't reach. Shortstop has been a black hole. We have 35+ errors already this year. Our bullpen sucks. How much of all that is Hunter's fault? He's hit some big HRs and driven in some key runs for us. I know that stuff doesn't matter at all in the stat world, but it does matter when you want to win baseball games.

His personality is what it is. He's always been that way. Some guys love it, and apparently most on here hate it. So be it. I think he is a key piece for us and will continue to be this year.

You don't need to be into new age stats.

No one is saying that hunter is the only reason, only that he isn't really helping.

His defense is horrible. You can tell that from watching the games.

He has a terrible plate approach. You can tell that by watching the games and never seeing him take a walk.

Has he gotten some big hits? I'm sure he has.

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We knew going in that SS and 3B would be iffy. Avilas performance isnt surprising. LF would also be a question mark. So Hunter playing poorly is compounded. Is it fair? He makea good money.

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Bat flips are for home runs or late game run scoring plays.

Torii acts he is the best player on the team, or one of the best. He gets all heated if he gets hit by a pitch or he gets buzzed.

He acts like he has been shot if he dives for a ball and misses. He fakes a limp if he lets the ball past him.

He mugs for the cameras in post game interviews.

He's not a good baseball player anymore and he's constantly compensating for it or trying to deflect.

I couldn't agree more. He seems to have difficulty getting a good jump on the ball when he plays right field, among other things.

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wow from reading this thread you'd thought this was the 04 Tigers playing..... lets not forget what real horrible baseball is

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He's not the main reason, but he's a big contributor to their struggles. He is not terrible offensively. He's average, but you don't want your right fielder to be average, not when he's arguably the worst defensive right fielder in MLB.

Same problem at 3b. Unless Castellanos improves a ton at 3b, he's going to have to OPS 850+ to make up for his D. He just doesn't make many plays. I'm not arguing we shouldn't be playing him to see if he can get there, simply making the point that 3rd is another position that isn't doing much to help them win right now.

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On another note, is anyone else getting a bit nervous about Cabrera playing through this injury? Yes, it might be minor, but all I can think of is last year's debacle. Miguel confirmed that he felt better last night, but that the hamstring tightened a bit in the later innings. Why not play it safe and rest him for a few games?

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On another note, is anyone else getting a bit nervous about Cabrera playing through this injury? Yes, it might be minor, but all I can think of is last year's debacle. Miguel confirmed that he felt better last night, but that the hamstring tightened a bit in the later innings. Why not play it safe and rest him for a few games?

Yes.

and

Because Victor doesn't throw to 2nd to get the lead runner on GBs.

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I'm not a big new-age stat guy, so I will take you guys at your words with the WAR and stuff that proves he is a God-awful player in every way. But watching every game, I sure don't think Hunter is the main reason we are struggling. Avila's hitting under .220. Until recently, Castellanos was swinging at pitches he couldn't reach. Shortstop has been a black hole. We have 35+ errors already this year. Our bullpen sucks. How much of all that is Hunter's fault? He's hit some big HRs and driven in some key runs for us. I know that stuff doesn't matter at all in the stat world, but it does matter when you want to win baseball games.

.

Actually, that's not true. The stat world does care about "big hits" which is why there are stats like RE24 and WPA. Those stats actually show that he is not getting the most out of his hits as they make him look worse than his non-situational stats.

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He's not the main reason, but he's a big contributor to their struggles. He is not terrible offensively. He's average, but you don't want your right fielder to be average, not when he's arguably the worst defensive right fielder in MLB.

I mean, you don't want ANY of your players to be average. I wish we were running All Stars out there at every position, but we aren't and we can't. No one can. And when the Yankees did that in the recent past, it usually didn't result in championships anyway.

How do you all define "terrible" in the field? I would define it as a guy who routinely plays singles into doubles, misplays balls he should catch and lets them fall for hits, lets balls get by him for multiple extra bases often, drops fly balls, has a terrible arm, throws to the wrong bases, makes poor decisions and routinely misses the cutoff man.

I have seen Hunter take bad routes on a few balls that turned singles into doubles. I've seen him take some shaky routes to balls but still catch them. But beyond that I would not describe him as a "terrible" outfielder. I think his arm is fine. I haven't seen him make stupid decisions or regularly miss cutoff men. He only has two errors. And I realize that errors aren't a good way to judge much about an outfielder, but still. He doesn't have any assists, but I can't recall a ton of obvious opportunities where I thought, 'Damn, if he weren't such a terrible outfielder, he'd have nailed that guy there.'

Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I just don't see the "terrible" thing at all.

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I can't understand how you can watch hunter every day and not conclude that he is terrible in the field.

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wow from reading this thread you'd thought this was the 04 Tigers playing..... lets not forget what real horrible baseball is

Per baseball reference, Torii has a WAR of -1 in 2014 (in 54 games -> that project to -3(!!) WAR in 162 games).

The Tigers RF in 2004 was Bobby Higginson, and he posted a WAR of 2.2

The Tigers RF in 2003 was also Bobby, and he posted a WAR of 0.3.

So I would contend it is at least arguable Hunter is a downgrade in right field play relative to 2003/4. That is how bad Torii has been.

EDIT: I know you said Tigers, rather than Torii, but Torii has been real bad and it helps make the point.

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How do you all define "terrible" in the field? I would define it as a guy who routinely plays singles into doubles, misplays balls he should catch and lets them fall for hits, lets balls get by him for multiple extra bases often, drops fly balls, has a terrible arm, throws to the wrong bases, makes poor decisions and routinely misses the cutoff man.

Sounds a lot like Hunter in 2014.

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Hunter is a nightmare of almost Delmon proportions in the field this year. He looks every bit as bad out there as advertised.

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The table-setters on this team are not doing their job. Cabrera has had a grand total of 2 runners on base for the entire month. TWO! In 6 of the 8 games, he came up with the bases empty each at-bat. That is just incredible.

Ajax has been swinging pretty well lately and could be getting ready to heat up. Having him in an RBI spot in the order didn't seem to work, so how about moving him back to the top with Kinsler as 1,2 (either order would work). Cabrera has been coming to the plate with the bases empty for a month now!! One of the more obvious topics that I have not herd much mention of (although I don't keep up on this board).

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Actually, that's not true. The stat world does care about "big hits" which is why there are stats like RE24 and WPA. Those stats actually show that he is not getting the most out of his hits as they make him look worse than his non-situational stats.

Building off of that, Baseball-Reference has summary stats for high leverage, medium leverage and low leverage situations.

Torii Hunter in 2014:

High Leverage Situations: 0.212 / 0.250 / 0.242

Medium Leverage Situations: 0.250 / 0.278 / 0.441

Low Leverage Situations: 0.294 / 0.313 / 0.514

One could argue how the cut-offs for high leverage versus medium versus low, but it is very hard for me to imagine any situation for anyone to conclude Torii has been an effective hitter in key situations in 2014. He frankly has been terrible in those situations using the old school stats.

And the low leverage situation stats aren't even that good. .500 slugging is very good, but a 0.313 on base?

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And I understand he hasn't "actually" been coming to bat with no runners on for a month, it just feels like it.

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I actually did not know that Hunter was doing so poorly at situational hitting until now. So, I guess he's even worse than I thought this year.

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Swap Avila and Hunter in the lineup.... seems a simple move that could be effective.

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wow from reading this thread you'd thought this was the 04 Tigers playing..... lets not forget what real horrible baseball is

We are just talking about Torii Hunter, not the whole team.

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We are just talking about Torii Hunter, not the whole team.

In fairness to Hunter, 2004 Hunter caused the 2004 Tigers lots of grief. 2014 Hunter is causing the 2014 Hunter lots of grief as well. There is something to be said for consistency.

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How many balls has Hunter dropped this year? How many times do you think he's played a single into a double or triple? I recall about 5 total occurrences of these two things. Off the top of my head, I don't recall any situations in which he made a terrible throw or allowed a runner to take a base that a "non-terrible" rightfielder wouldn't have.

Offensively, I get that his OBP sucks. But he is third on the team in runs scored, HR and RBI. I am sure most of you will find ways to devalue all three of those figures, but I think they are meaningful. Despite his low OBP, he's been accounting for a significant percentage of our runs this year. Cite all the WAR numbers you want to, but I'm never going to be convinced that his "terrible" defense completely negates his offensive production. And WAR in this case is meaningless, unless you know of another right fielder who is ready to step in to replace him and surpass all of his stats.

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Swap Avila and Hunter in the lineup.... seems a simple move that could be effective.

yes

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How many balls has Hunter dropped this year? How many times do you think he's played a single into a double or triple? I recall about 5 total occurrences of these two things. Off the top of my head, I don't recall any situations in which he made a terrible throw or allowed a runner to take a base that a "non-terrible" rightfielder wouldn't have.

Offensively, I get that his OBP sucks. But he is third on the team in runs scored, HR and RBI. I am sure most of you will find ways to devalue all three of those figures, but I think they are meaningful. Despite his low OBP, he's been accounting for a significant percentage of our runs this year. Cite all the WAR numbers you want to, but I'm never going to be convinced that his "terrible" defense completely negates his offensive production. And WAR in this case is meaningless, unless you know of another right fielder who is ready to step in to replace him and surpass all of his stats.

Forget WAR. But not because we don't have anyone to replace him. We wouldn't have anyone to replace him regardless of what stats you use.

He's third on the team in runs scored? I'm just going to guess and say that kinsler is first and Cabrera is second. Maybe I'm wrong. Where do these guys typically bat in the lineup. It shouldn't surprise you that the guys with most plate appearances and the guys on base ahead of Cabrera and victor are going to end up crossing home plate more often.

His ability to hit a home run is good. It's about the only thing he is good for. It's not not enough to make up for his other shortcomings.

Being third in RBI is also not that great. He has hit fifth every once in a while, so having Cabrera and victor on base ahead of him helps, and when he bats second he has kinsler.

It also helps that he has played almost every day.

So why not just focus on what he an control? His average is 267. His obp is 291. His ISO is 180 (that's good). His defense is atrocious (pick any advanced defensive stat that evaluates each of his defensive plays).

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Torii hunter has the worst OBP out of the 8 tigers with at least 150 plate appearances.

And it's not particularly close.

And he still the default #2 hitter.

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