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Deleterious

2014 NBA Draft

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Slow down on comparing George to Mcgrady. He might get there, but he's not there yet. Mcgrady averaged at least 24 for 6 straight years with 2 scoring titles, including a 32 ppg season. 32! He was also a much better playmaker than George.

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dirk and kobe and lebron did it. Lebron learned to be the man, mcgrady never did. Not sure you have much of a point there.

his stats will make him an hof (and because everyone gets jnto the bball hof), dont worry. But he'll never be considered one of the best by people who watched him fail when it mattered time after time after time after time....

Lebron didn't learn how to be the man until he had D Wade/Bosh on his team though.

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really? Lebron singlehandedly led a team that without him was the worst team in the league to the finals, beating your Deeeetroit Pistons. I can't stand Lebron, but dude was the Man that year.

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really? Lebron singlehandedly led a team that without him was the worst team in the league to the finals, beating your Deeeetroit Pistons. I can't stand Lebron, but dude was the Man that year.

I don't think that was the worst team in the league at all. Z was good. Varejao was great on the boards and then they had 3 point shooters.

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I might argue that the 2010-11 Cavs Roster was better than the 06-07 roster without Lebron and the 09-10 roster that won 61 games was practically the same team minus Lebron as the 10-11 team that won 19 games

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Lebron didn't learn how to be the man until he had D Wade/Bosh on his team though.

Before or after he single handedly beat the pistons?

And im pretty sure lebron made it out of the first round of the playoffs.

but its unfair to compare mcgrady to lebron, lebron is otherwordly good.

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Before or after he single handedly beat the pistons?

And im pretty sure lebron made it out of the first round of the playoffs.

but its unfair to compare mcgrady to lebron, lebron is otherwordly good.

I remember boobie Gibson single handily destroying the Pistons in game six. I do recall Lebron taking over game five.

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I might argue that the 2010-11 Cavs Roster was better than the 06-07 roster without Lebron and the 09-10 roster that won 61 games was practically the same team minus Lebron as the 10-11 team that won 19 games

Not even close

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I might argue that the 2010-11 Cavs Roster was better than the 06-07 roster without Lebron and the 09-10 roster that won 61 games was practically the same team minus Lebron as the 10-11 team that won 19 games

False.

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75 early entry candidates. 60 spots to be drafted. Plus international players and graduating seniors.

The option to leave school early and make some money, even if it is d league or overseas money, is obviously attractive. Obviously, every kid's situation is different, but it still seems like too many kids are leaving college early.

Of course, I would bet that some of these guys pulled a mcgary.

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He was traded to Houston when he was 25. You are cherry picking some stats but he was Kobe/Lebron level player for one year, 02-03. That's not who he was for the rest of his career he was very much a Paul George level talent.

TMac had played in the NBA for seven seasons by the time he became a Rocket at age 25, and was coming off two consecutive scoring titles. That's a career for a lot of players. TMac averaged a 32.1/6.5/5.5/1.7/0.8 line when he was 23, George's line 21.7/6.8/3.5/1.9/0.3. McGrady also shot the ball more efficiently at that age and committed fewer turnovers in spite of being the ball-dominant player on his team. George may not have met his ceiling yet, and he definitely plays on a better team, but he's got a ways to go before he ventures into elite territory.

TMac's and LBJ's numbers are absolutely comparable prime for prime. TMac was a more efficient facilitator and LBJ was a more efficient scorer. LBJ's best TOV per is 3.0, which represent's TMac's worst year in that department. Rebounding and traditional defensive stats are all but a draw, although James gets the nod as the better defender--though TMac was quite capable when he wanted to be.

Comparing TMac to Kobe is real interesting, and you'll see that Kobe learned how to get to the line as he got older where TMac began settling for the jumper far more as his body began to fail him in his late 20s. Kobe took his scoring to a level that approached Jordan, which is a level Durant could get to in the right situation. For a few years, the TMac/Kobe comparisons were valid just like for a few years the 'Nique/Jordan comparisons were valid in the '80s--but Jordan had the extra level in his ceiling, played on a better team, and had superior longevity just like Kobe did in concerns to TMac.

It is kind of like comparing the Eric Davis of the '80s to Mike Trout. People want to say what is right in front of their face is better, and that the guy from yesterday didn't get it done like he should have. But looking back and really assessing their impact on a stat sheet as well as the game during that time can put things in perspective. And yes, I do think for those brief four years Eric Davis is one of the three best CF I've ever seen. Similarly, TMac is one of the ten best all-around basketball players I've ever seen. By all-around best, meaning guys who could play three different positions if needed and contribute, effectively, the most ways. Tough to put them in order, so I won't but it is something like:

-Magic

-Bird

-Jordan

-Hakeem

-LBJ

-Kobe

-Durant

-TMac

-Barkley, Dr J, Hill, Pippen or Kidd for two of the last four slots

Perhaps in a few years we can talk about George like this, but his numbers don't jump off the page yet even if his obvious talent does.

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that's quite a list...so Tmac was better than Duncan, Dr. J, Charles Barkley, Kareem, KG, Kidd, Pippen, and so many others. That's certainly an opinion

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that's quite a list...so Tmac was better than Duncan, Dr. J, Charles Barkley, Kareem, KG, Kidd, Pippen, and so many others. That's certainly an opinion

That's not even close to what I said, so I'll go ahead and re-quote it for you so you don't have to read 500 words of copy to get there--sound good?

"By all-around best, meaning guys who could play three different positions if needed and contribute, effectively, the most ways. Tough to put them in order, so I won't but it is something like:

-Magic

-Bird

-Jordan

-Hakeem

-LBJ

-Kobe

-Durant

-TMac

-Barkley, Dr J, Hill, Pippen or Kidd for two of the last four slots"

Duncan and Kareem did not make my list because they are strictly bigs. Hakeem makes this list because I believe him to have the minimal amount of SF skills it would take to be highly effective if he were to log starters minutes at that spot.

This was not a "best of all-time" list, just a list of the best all-around players I've ever laid eyes on in my 40 years. Obviously, guys like Oscar Robertson, Elgin Baylor, Hondo and others would have been in the mix and pushed some of the more contemporary players out of the top 10.

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I remember boobie Gibson single handily destroying the Pistons in game six..

A true low point in that team's great run.

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75 early entry candidates. 60 spots to be drafted. Plus international players and graduating seniors.

The option to leave school early and make some money, even if it is d league or overseas money, is obviously attractive. Obviously, every kid's situation is different, but it still seems like too many kids are leaving college early.

Of course, I would bet that some of these guys pulled a mcgary.

But what can be done about it?

On one hand, they are 18 and of legal adult age. Plenty of people stop school after one year and go to work. Might not be the best choice, but anyone else has that rite.

On the other hand, any employer should be able to (reasonably) enact it's own minimum standards for employment. While the sports leagues each have their own different policies, it's their call.

I just wonder what kind of advice these kids are getting. Are they being advised to come out and too many of them are being told that they will be first rounders or are just being fed a faulty line of quick riches to be had overseas? Or how many of them are being told to stay in school but decide against it? The former really should be of concern.

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I find it extremely unfair to compare George to McGrady. I mean, McGrady with all those extra years to accumulate stats and George with all those extra second rounds...

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I find it extremely unfair to compare George to McGrady. I mean, McGrady with all those extra years to accumulate stats and George with all those extra second rounds...

George is GOAT, it is now settled

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George is GOAT, it is now settled

That has been argued in this thread just as many time as McGrady lead his team to the 2nd round of the playoffs. Zero.

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But what can be done about it?

On one hand, they are 18 and of legal adult age. Plenty of people stop school after one year and go to work. Might not be the best choice, but anyone else has that rite.

On the other hand, any employer should be able to (reasonably) enact it's own minimum standards for employment. While the sports leagues each have their own different policies, it's their call.

I just wonder what kind of advice these kids are getting. Are they being advised to come out and too many of them are being told that they will be first rounders or are just being fed a faulty line of quick riches to be had overseas? Or how many of them are being told to stay in school but decide against it? The former really should be of concern.

About a decade ago the phenomenon of internet poker swept through the country in the aftermath of Chris Moneymaker's 2003 WSOP $2.5M Main Event score. He was a young Tennessee accountant who won his $10k WSOP ME seat by winning a $40 tournament on a little-known site named Poker Stars. College kids saw this guy, who was only a little older than they were, make his big score on ESPN and the gold rush was on. Kids from Yale, Princeton, Penn, Cal and dozens of other top schools were starting to put more of their considerable IQ to work on the virtual felt, playing dozens--even hundreds--of tournaments every week than they were in class.

Some of these kids hit it big, winning six, seven and eight-figures in short order. Even high school kids got in on it, rolling up million-dollar bankrolls before they could legally buy a lottery ticket. The same phenomenon took hold in Western Europe in countries like Norway, Finland, Denmark, Germany, France, Italy and even Russia (to name a few).

But much like the NBA, only the elite of these "early entry" players became "stars"--a higher percentage became "grinders", guys who put a lot of effort into playing for a decent wage. The vast majority either failed within a year because of bad habits, bad money management or lack of life management skills. They found out that playing poker was no longer glamorous or thrilling like it was when they were in school, it was now their *job*.

The early entries remind me of these internet kids of yesterday, in a way. They don't want to wait their turn to make money, to prove they are world-class. Like their poker counterparts, the early entries can all play. That's not the question. The question they have to answer is do they have the mental constitution to do what it takes to push their ceiling, ply their craft full-time, and keep their personal affairs from adversely affecting their game performance.

It's all a gold rush. The kids see all that money, all that fame, and they want to leave their old life in the rear-view. Some will burn out like Andrew Bynum or not work hard enough to develop like Austin Daye. A high percentage just may not be good enough, and that is a too long of list for sure.

Would most of these kids just be better off staying in school and earning their degree? Absolutely, but as sports fans who use descriptive words like garbage for describing certain players, we tend not to be humanistic and--on the whole--we don't care about guys who utterly fail at life after they finish playing basketball. This is no different in the poker community, but at least some of those former prodigies are able to return to school after the poker world spits them out. While I don't have stats to back it up, I would think a much smaller percentage of basketball players with abbreviated playing careers return to school to finish their degrees.

It is up to the NBA to establish their early-entry rules, and I hope they come up with something that will help everyone's interest and not just their bottom line.

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Last year 48 US college players declared early for the draft, compared to 45 this year. 19 were taken in the first round (Guaranteed money for 2 years) and 9 more in the 2nd round. So a total of 20 were not drafted at all.

Archie Goodwin was the lowest early entry guy picked in the first round at #29. He made $1m this year and will make $1.2M next year. The idea someone making that much money should stay in school and get a degree is laughable. If he got his degree and worked a 9-5 job he would have to work 40 years and average just over $54,000 a year to make that much money.

Those 9 that were picked in the 2nd round? Not as bright of a future as Goodwin. But they probably all landed training camp invites at least. I posted an article in the NBA info thread the other day saying training camp invitees make about $70,000 just for the invite. They can make up to another $30,000 in the D-League but the average salary there is something like $15,000-$19,000. If you land a 10 day contract you make another $50,000 and you can have two 10 day contracts, so a total of $100,000.

The 20 not drafted? They might be in some trouble. Or they might go to Europe/Asia and make $100,000 a year for the next 10 years, who knows. We also don't know a lot about those 20. Did they fail drug tests like McGary did? Did they flunk out of school and toss their name in the draft just because? Were they sick of school and just wanted out no matter what?

Lets not forget that most athletes that would enter the draft probably aren't exactly college material to begin with. So its not like a bunch of high school valedictorians are dropping out of college here. In fact, the biggest disservice we do to these kids is sticking them in college to begin with. If they couldn't dribble/catch the ball they wouldn't be there in the first place because they wouldn't qualify. So we stick them in an environment they probably shouldn't be in to begin with, then we shake our heads in disgust when they leave that environment early.

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