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RedRamage

Assume that Schwartz is fired: Blow up and rebuild or just refurbish?

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So let's say that Schwartz and company are fired after this season. What happens then? Is there enough talent and ability on the team right now to have a winning team or will this be a blow it up and rebuild sort of thing?

I think this most hinges on Stafford. If the new coach feels that Stafford can be "fixed" then it's a refurbish situations. But if we the new guy thinks that Stafford needs to go we might need to just blow it all up. Think about it... if we're having to start over with a new QB, potentially new system, then we've got some pieces that may not be around by the time the new guy is ready for prime time. Yes, I'm talking specifically about Megatron.

At 28 he's not really old (despite what some Ravens might say), but he's also not particularly young either. And if you add 3-4 years for a new QB to develop, CJ is going to be on the end of his career. Why not look to trade him in him prime and get some really good solid assets to help build the new team around the new QB?

Please note: I'm only talking about trading CJ in a very specific situation: A new coach who wants a new QB (presumably via the draft) and wants to build a new system. If we're "fixing" Stafford or bring in a FA guy, then keep CJ. But if we are rebuilding, CJ likely is going to be on the downside of his career by the time the team is ready for prime time again.

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The team, as constructed, can win a superbowl. No need to blow anything up. Just need a new coach.

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They'd never get full value for CJ in a trade. Just the way it works in the NFL.

Get a new coaching staff (preferably a QB guru type) and tweak the roster and this team can contend.

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Trade CJ? That's pure unadulterated madness. I know that he dropped a few too many balls this season but you don't trade one of the best players in the game and quite possibly the MVP of the league considering how dead they would look without him before he turns 30.

The team has a lot of good pieces. The running game is more than fine, the offensive line is young and full of promise (never thought i would say that about a Lions team), there are plenty of weapons on offense and the front 7 on D has been really good this season IMO.

Bring in a new head coach with new coordinators (although i wouldn't mind if they kept Gunther), a QB coach to work on Stafford's mechanics, some corner help and this team can compete for a Super Bowl. I really don't think they are that far off personnelwise. They just need to be steered in the right direction.

Once again, trade CJ? I think it's time for you to take a timeout RedRamage (i'm just bustin your balls) but seriously, trade CJ? Pffft.

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Trade CJ? That's pure unadulterated madness. I know that he dropped a few too many balls this season but you don't trade one of the best players in the game and quite possibly the MVP of the league considering how dead they would look without him before he turns 30.

Just to clarify... I'm not saying the Lions should trade CJ. I think they should consider it ONLY if they are planning on doing another 5 year rebuild plan.

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Just to clarify... I'm not saying the Lions should trade CJ. I think they should consider it ONLY if they are planning on doing another 5 year rebuild plan.

To put it another way, let's go back to back to January of 2009. The team just finished 0-16, they have a new GM and just fired their HC. You have a superstar player in CJ, but now let's say instead of CJ being 23 and just recently into the PROs, he's 28. Knowing that it's likely going to be 5 years before you're a solid competitive team again, knowing that in 5 years CJ will be 33 with 12 NFL seasons of wear and tear on his body, do you look at trading for some high draft picks and/or highly rated young players?

I think in the above situation you need to strongly consider it.

Now, we're not in that situation... this is not the 2008 Lions. (Check this out if you want to take a trip down memory lane: 2008 Detroit Lions Statistics & Players - Pro-Football-Reference.com Remember backup RB Rudi Johnson? Or Shaun McDonald, our number 2 leading receiver?) So in general I don't think you trade CJ. But it is an interesting hypothetical question.

If the 2014 Lions are a rebuild project... is it better to have a 33 year old CJ when they become competitive again? Or to have the picks?

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To put it another way, let's go back to back to January of 2009. The team just finished 0-16, they have a new GM and just fired their HC. You have a superstar player in CJ, but now let's say instead of CJ being 23 and just recently into the PROs, he's 28. Knowing that it's likely going to be 5 years before you're a solid competitive team again, knowing that in 5 years CJ will be 33 with 12 NFL seasons of wear and tear on his body, do you look at trading for some high draft picks and/or highly rated young players?

I think in the above situation you need to strongly consider it.

Now, we're not in that situation... this is not the 2008 Lions. (Check this out if you want to take a trip down memory lane: 2008 Detroit Lions Statistics & Players - Pro-Football-Reference.com Remember backup RB Rudi Johnson? Or Shaun McDonald, our number 2 leading receiver?) So in general I don't think you trade CJ. But it is an interesting hypothetical question.

If the 2014 Lions are a rebuild project... is it better to have a 33 year old CJ when they become competitive again? Or to have the picks?

I'm telling you man, this team is really close. It's right on the edge of being a real, live contender.

This is nothing like the Lions of yesteryear personnelwise, there's no reason to "blow it up" when they have a group capable of contending.

They generally dominate the gameplay but just can't seem to clean up the discipline and hold onto the ball.

Bring in a coach who will bring structure and discipline to the group and will hire coordinators with schemes that put these players in the best position to succeed and watch this team take off.

Schwartz was brought in to create a culture change in which the Lions were to be a lot tougher which was good at first but tough doesn't necessarily equate to good, sound football. This team is missing out on the little details that win football games and that's something that can be coaxed out of them by a coaching staff that emphasizes discipline. Schwartz seems to be all about aggression which again, is good at times but there needs to be a proper balance of aggression and smarts.

Trent Dilfer put it best several weeks back. He said that they are more interested in making the highlight reel than focusing on the meat and potatoes of the game, the little details so in essence, they make more bad plays than good plays as a result. The good plays are really REALLY good, explosive plays but it's those bad plays that wind up costing them the game. When the games get tight, it's vital to play smart and disciplined. Schwartz has a one track mind, an aggressive mentality and it's just not working.

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I don't think anyone viewing the roster looks at the Lions as a rebuild. This team is ready with a little tinkering. Rebuild shouldn't even be considered.

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The team, as constructed, can win a superbowl. No need to blow anything up. Just need a new coach.

I'm surprised at how much fans seem to over value the talent on the Lions' roster...our record against playoff teams from 2010-2012 is a whopping 3-18with the wins being the Matt Flynn vs. Drew Stanton game in 2010, us beating the Tim Tebow lead Broncos in 2011 and us beating the Seahawks last year. None of those aside from the Seahawks game are games to necessarily hang our hat on.

So, my question is this...how much of a factor is coaching in football if you think that keeping the talent we currently have and changing nothing but the coach will take us from winning 3 games out of 21 against playoff teams the last 3 years to superbowl contenders? If we have so much talent as many fans seem to imply, we aren't we at least winning 25%+ of games against playoff teams?

(I didn't include this year because the playoff picture isn't set yet...as of now we have gone 3-5 against playoff hopefuls with our 3 wins coming against the injured Bears and Packers while losing to every other playoff hopeful)

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So, my question is this...how much of a factor is coaching in football if you think that keeping the talent we currently have and changing nothing but the coach will take us from winning 3 games out of 21 against playoff teams the last 3 years to superbowl contenders? If we have so much talent as many fans seem to imply, we aren't we at least winning 25%+ of games against playoff teams?

See the Kansas City Chiefs. In my opinion, coaching in football can mean the difference between 8-8 and 13-3. Football is all about coaching, every single play is based on what a coach wants to do.

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There's no point in trading Johnson because he wouldn't bring anything more than a late 1st round pick back. That's just how NFL trades work. Brandon Marshall got traded for a ****ing 3rd round pick. Randy Moss was traded for what, a 6th? Something ridiculous like that.

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See the Kansas City Chiefs. In my opinion, coaching in football can mean the difference between 8-8 and 13-3. Football is all about coaching, every single play is based on what a coach wants to do.

The Chiefs also changed up their roster substantially and cleaned house entirely...new everything, not just head coach.

Kansas City Chiefs 2013 Team Transactions - Trades, Injured List, Free Agents, and Signings - ESPN

They also got a new QB which has made all the difference in the world.

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The Chiefs also changed up their roster substantially and cleaned house entirely...new everything, not just head coach.

Kansas City Chiefs 2013 Team Transactions - Trades, Injured List, Free Agents, and Signings - ESPN

They also got a new QB which has made all the difference in the world.

Right, a good coach got what he wanted and then won. Schwartz doesn't know how to do that.

Look at the 49ers with Alex Smith, they were horrible, then Harbaugh came in and they were great.

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Lovie Smith should be the next coach. The offense wouldn't be any worse than it is now because the only strategy they have is "chuck it to Calvin" but the defense would probably be greatly improved.

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Right, a good coach got what he wanted and then won. Schwartz doesn't know how to do that.

Look at the 49ers with Alex Smith, they were horrible, then Harbaugh came in and they were great.

They were great and to be honest I think they have much more talent on their roster, I also think the addition of Aldon Smith (with his 14 sacks) and their other defensive pieces were a huge upgrade.

I definitely think we need a new coach, but I would be disappointed if that is where they end the changes. I don't think the roster needs to be completely blown up, but I do think more needs to change than the head coach.

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First and foremost, this shouldn't even be a question. There is zero percent chance of any sort of major rebuild and it woudn't make any sense if they did.

Also, coaches are important, butoften overrated. At least in the sense that talent is your most important factor. KC was bad last year, but they were also kind of unlucky. They had the 1st overall pick, added a starting caliber QB(even though Smith isn't elite, he's a big upgrade on Cassel) and they lead the league in pro bowlers last year. This was already a talented team. The 9ers were very similar in that they had been building something for a few years and were ready to hit the ground running. Harbaugh is good and might have improved them a little, but they probably make it pretty far without him too.

I realize people have all sorts of issues with our staff, but I think coaching has often had little to do with why we lost. The stuff that really irks people is such a minor part of what's going on(penalties, going for the fake FG etc.) and to be honest, we have had some awful luck this year. A 61 yard FG, the best WR basically costing us 2 games with terrible drops, the ridiculous snow bowl, Bush going out of the Arizona game, Calvin not playing vs. GB when Nate was already out. I don't think any of these things have anything to do with coaching. Stafford has thrown a lot of picks lately and while I've assigned him blame, at least a handful of them weren't his fault.

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OL and DL are young, talented, and have a ton of room for growth (especially Ansah). We need a playmaker at DE; maybe Ansah can become that. This is huge.

The weakest spots on the roster are CB and WR (below CJ). A good offseason could plug these holes.

Maybe I'm deluding myself, but Stafford's problem is making decisions. Decision making at the QB position is about coaching. This staff spends too much time protecting Stafford from his bad decisions. You don't have to hang him out to dry, but I would welcome a coach who said, after a game where Stafford threw multiple INTs, "He's operating outside of the offense. He has to make better decisions with the football."

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I also think that there is a factor that is overlooked. Due to Stafford's arm talent and what we have with Calvin as our main receiving option, we are always going to take more risks downfield than most other teams. A lot of INTs come on passes to Calvin for a reason.

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OL and DL are young, talented, and have a ton of room for growth (especially Ansah). We need a playmaker at DE; maybe Ansah can become that. This is huge.

The weakest spots on the roster are CB and WR (below CJ). A good offseason could plug these holes.

Maybe I'm deluding myself, but Stafford's problem is making decisions. Decision making at the QB position is about coaching. This staff spends too much time protecting Stafford from his bad decisions. You don't have to hang him out to dry, but I would welcome a coach who said, after a game where Stafford threw multiple INTs, "He's operating outside of the offense. He has to make better decisions with the football."

That would have to be a hell of an offseason, that isn't to say it can't happen but it seems like a lot would have to go right. I'm not a salary cap guru by any stretch, but I assume that with the big contracts to Stafford, Suh, and Johnson we won't have a ton of room. I know Burleson is due for a raise, Willie Young is a FA, Delmas is getting a raise...I'm sure there are other players getting a raise but those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. But this makes me think they will have to fill a lot of their holes through the draft or trades.

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I also think that there is a factor that is overlooked. Due to Stafford's arm talent and what we have with Calvin as our main receiving option, we are always going to take more risks downfield than most other teams. A lot of INTs come on passes to Calvin for a reason.

Johnson this season has exactly 25% of our completions and 27% of targets, I think it's safe to assume a fair amount of INT come on passes to Calvin for that reason also. But to the best of my memory I don't remember a disproportionate amount of INT coming on deep balls that were relative "toss ups." There were quite a few tipped balls, I will admit that...but also a lot of INT due to overthrows/poor accuracy.

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I also think that there is a factor that is overlooked. Due to Stafford's arm talent and what we have with Calvin as our main receiving option, we are always going to take more risks downfield than most other teams. A lot of INTs come on passes to Calvin for a reason.

On the other hand, I thought the one INT the other night (1st pick in the 4th Q) on the attempt at a very short range crossing route pretty deep in your end was an example of an necessarily high risk/reward play call for a 3rd and a short 2 down by less than a FG. Why have a gunslinger with a ton of INTs throw into that kind of traffic at that down and distance? Made no sense to me.

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On the other hand, I thought the one INT the other night (1st pick in the 4th Q) on the attempt at a very short range crossing route pretty deep in your end was an example of an necessarily high risk/reward play call for a 3rd and a short 2 down by less than a FG. Why have a gunslinger with a ton of INTs throw into that kind of traffic at that down and distance? Made no sense to me.

absolutely. I can't remember the 1st one, but the last 2 INTs vs. Baltimore were on Stafford, period. I don't mean to say that he makes no mistakes. Everything in context though. He has the most pass attempts ever year and takes a lot of shots down field.

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Johnson this season has exactly 25% of our completions and 27% of targets, I think it's safe to assume a fair amount of INT come on passes to Calvin for that reason also. But to the best of my memory I don't remember a disproportionate amount of INT coming on deep balls that were relative "toss ups." There were quite a few tipped balls, I will admit that...but also a lot of INT due to overthrows/poor accuracy.

9 INTs were meant for Calvin out of STafford's 17. That's double those completion/target numbers.

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