Is it time to give the ball to Morris and bench Gardner?

[Gehringer_2 2,540]

I think they will have a pretty difficult time opening up the running game if the other team knows that your QB can't pass the ball very effectively. Again, it seemed like PSU was not shy about stacking the box....and Michigan still insisted on rushing right at them. Maybe if the OL gave Gardner a little more time, he may have a better passing game, but I haven't seen any improvement in his passing game this year.

agree. in today's game you pretty much have to pass to run and you have to run to pass.

[Bryan 10]

agree. in today's game you pretty much have to pass to run and you have to run to pass.

So basically that doesn't make any sense. Whether you open the pass with your run or vice-versa, you have to have conviction and execute. Not something a team can do with an unintelligent running QB trying to run a hybrid NFL offense.

[Truth 10]

So basically that doesn't make any sense. Whether you open the pass with your run or vice-versa, you have to have conviction and execute. Not something a team can do with an unintelligent running QB trying to run a hybrid NFL offense.

Gardner doesn't lack for intelligence. He graduated in 3 years and is now in grad school. I think some of this has to go to play calling and Gardner's lack of experience.

[Deleterious 2,137]

Reading this thread you would think they are 1-5.

[pyrotigers 431]

Reading this thread you would think they are 1-5.

Well, they very easily could be. And that includes games against three of the worst teams in Division 1, Minnesota, a bad Notre Dame, and a bad Penn State.

They haven't really been able to run the ball against anyone, so I don't see why they should have to 'establish the pass'. The fact is the O-Line has just been dominated by awful UConn and PSU defenses. Pathetic.

[Nastradamus 270]

Do you put Gardner back at WR if so?

[belcherboy 22]

Reading this thread you would think they are 1-5.

I think having a 5-1 team, in the B1G, that is unranked speaks volumes of what the experts think about this team. I don't think it is just a bunch of bitter fans that see major problems with this football team.

[Who is the Drizzle? 588]

Morris might be better on an offense with weapons, eventually, but Gardner is the only weapon currently. He made 2 bad reads in the 1st half, but the dude was moving them up and down the field and scoring points until Borges/Hoke decided squat on the ball. I don't know what more he could have done in the 2nd half.

[Deleterious 2,137]

I think having a 5-1 team, in the B1G, that is unranked speaks volumes of what the experts think about this team. I don't think it is just a bunch of bitter fans that see major problems with this football team.

It sounds exactly like bitter fans to me. Unless you really think DG is the only reason they are playing bad. I'm not even sure he would make the top 3 of my complaints from last night.

[Gehringer_2 2,540]

It sounds exactly like bitter fans to me. Unless you really think DG is the only reason they are playing bad. I'm not even sure he would make the top 3 of my complaints from last night.

Sure this team has lots of problems, but most teams do. Take away Gardner's TOs and this was still an easy win and today's conversations would be much different.

[Deleterious 2,137]

Sure this team has lots of problems, but most teams do. Take away Gardner's TOs and this was still an easy win and today's conversations would be much different.

If you take away his TO's you have to take away all the good he did as well. And he did a lot of good last night.

[Gehringer_2 2,540]

If you take away his TO's you have to take away all the good he did as well. And he did a lot of good last night.

That may be true, but the fact remains that a good college QB goes out and does the same good Devin did without the TOs. A good player has to be a net asset, not just a guy who plays well enough after he screws up to make it even.

I was really nervous about Gardner watching him last season because he showed this same inconsistency, but we waived it away saying it was because he hadn't had the whole season of practice at QB etc. But the practice hasn't really helped. His TO rate is still just unsustainable. I'm right back to where I was last season -- afraid he's a great young kid with a lot of physical tools who just isn't cut out to be a QB at Div1 level.

Edited October 13, 2013 by Gehringer_2

[Deleterious 2,137]

That may be true, but the fact remains that a good college QB goes out and does the same good Devin did without the TOs. A good player has to be a net asset, not just a guy who plays well enough after he screws up to make it even.

I was really nervous about Gardner watching him last season because he showed this same inconsistency, but we waived it away saying it was because he hadn't had the whole season of practice at QB etc. But the practice hasn't really helped. His TO rate is still just unsustainable. I'm right back to where I was last season -- afraid he's a great young kid with a lot of physical tools who just isn't cut out to be a QB at Div1 level.

Now he isn't a D1 QB? Oh lord.

[Gehringer_2 2,540]

Now he isn't a D1 QB? Oh lord.

How many TOs is he averaging per game as of right now, what does that project to for the season, and how many QBs have ever finished a season with their team somewhere in the final poll with that many TOs? Just asking. I think he's at 10 INTs which project to 20 on the season and at least a half dozen fumbles. You can't handle the ball on every play giving it away at that rate. He has to turn it around pretty quick or M is not going anywhere regardless of what other issues they also have.

Edited October 13, 2013 by Gehringer_2

[Deleterious 2,137]

How many TOs is he averaging per game as of right now, what does that project to for the season, and how many QBs have ever finished a season with their team somewhere in the final poll with that many TOs? Just asking. I think he's at 10 INTs which project to 20 on the season and at least a half dozen fumbles. You can't handle the ball on every play giving it away at that rate. He has to turn it around pretty quick or M is not going anywhere regardless of what other issues they also have.

I'm shocked they give him a uniform still.

[Gehringer_2 2,540]

I'm shocked they give him a uniform still.

I don't see the point of sarcasm as a response the hard facts. Gardner has been problematic at QB because of turnovers. That just is what it is. The position isn't some kind of bequest to him - he will lose it if he doesn't do better.

[Deleterious 2,137]

I don't see the point of sarcasm as a response the hard facts. Gardner has been problematic at QB because of turnovers. That just is what it is. The position isn't some kind of bequest to him - he will lose it if he doesn't do better.

I was trying to match absurd statements with you.

[Gehringer_2 2,540]

I was trying to match absurd statements with you.

What's absurd about pointing out a guy working on a pretty epic turnover rate? I don't get it. You don't think there have been a lot of guys with great tools who can't put it together to be a successful QB? I watched Drew Henson play here. His physical QB skills were on a par with Elway. He could make throws most pros could not. Could he run the team and O successfully - No.

Anyway - got to watch the ballgame....

[Deleterious 2,137]

What's absurd about pointing out a guy working on a pretty epic turnover rate? I don't get it. You don't think there have been a lot of guys with great tools who can't put it together to be a successful QB? I watched Drew Henson play here. His physical QB skills were on a par with Elway. He could make throws most pros could not. Could he run the team and O successfully - No.

Anyway - got to watch the ballgame....

Nothing wrong with pointing out his TO rate. He absolutely has to cut it down. It was your D1 QB comment that was absurd.

[Gehringer_2 2,540]

Nothing wrong with pointing out his TO rate. He absolutely has to cut it down. It was your D1 QB comment that was absurd.

then make it 'successful D1 QB'

[Who is the Drizzle? 588]

Obviously someone with the turnover rate of Gardner is not going to be a successful QB long-term. That's obvious.

There's still a lot to like about him, he does a lot with his legs and he seems to have the ability to move the football team when he has to and gets the chance. The problem with him is the same was with Denard, albeit quite less pronounced: Borges doesn't fit him, and he doesn't fit Borges. His game is not to sit in the pocket and read the D and make a snap decision on a 9 yard hitch. His game is shotgun, play-action, read-option, scrambling to buy time, and finding guys that break free. Put Gardner with an offense like the Buckeyes, and he would thrive along with the offense.

[Nietzsche 10]

Gardner has all the tools to be all kinds of awesome.

I 100% blame coaching and playcalling here.

Also, very, very concerning is this - Borges' history of quarterbacks:

Tony Graziani for 1 season 1995

231/426 (54.2%) 2604 yards 13 TDs 10 INTs

Cade McNown for 3 seasons 1996-98

537/942 (57%) 8431 yards 57 TDs 31 INTs

Cory Paus for 2 seasons 1999-00

221/423 (52.2%) 3343 yards 23 TDs and 18 INTs

Kyle Boller for 1 season 2001

133/271 (49.1%) 1741 yards 12 TDs 10 INTs

Gibran Hamdan for 1 season 2002

152/293 (51.9%) 2115 yards 9 TDs and 14 INTs

Matt Lovecchio for 1 season 2003

155/291 (53.3%) 1778 yards 3 TDs 9 INTs

Jason Campbell for 1 season 2004

188/270 (69.6%) 2700 yards 20 TDs 7 INTs

Brandon Cox for 3 seasons 2005-07

528/893 (59.1%) 6602 yards 38 TDs 30 INTs

Ryan Lindley for 2 seasons 2009-10

482/858 (56.2%) 6884 yards 51 TDs and 30 INTs

Denard Robinson for 2 seasons 2011-12

231/425 (54.4%) 3492 yards 29 TDs 24 INTs

Gardner's numbers fit right in.

[belcherboy 22]

Gardner has all the tools to be all kinds of awesome.

I 100% blame coaching and playcalling here.

Also, very, very concerning is this - Borges' history of quarterbacks:

Gardner's numbers fit right in.

That's not a bad stable of QB's. McNown was a 1st rounder IIRC, and Boller was probably a first round pick as well. I think I remember Jason Campbell as being a pretty highly regarded QB in the NFL draft as well.

I'm not against keeping Gardner as the starter, but if we got a freshman stud in the background, why isn't he seeing any snaps? Someone said above that Morris must not be killing it in practice or he'd probably see the field a little more. I think that is a bigger worry about the future of this team then Gardner right now IMO. Gardner has played a pretty poorly when looking at the competition Michigan has played this year. None of the opponents Michigan has played are among the top 50 defenses, and they have a combined record of 16-21 this year. Against the 3 worst defenses on his schedule he has thrown 7 INT's to just 2 passing TD's. Fortunately, he has some rushing stats that help even things out, but his passing game has been VERY poorly executed this year.

Hopefully the list you put above can give us some hope. Several QB's on the list seemed to have developed into high end draft picks, although I'm not sure how much influence you can have on a guy if you only coached him one year. Regardless, I still feel that Gardner could develop into a good QB, but I still float the question, if things stay the same, when do you pull the plug on Gardner and go with the 5* freshman?

[Mr. Bigglesworth 3,208]

I would think if the stud isn't seeing snaps, it is likely he has not demonstrated enough at practice to earn them over Gardner.

[Truth 10]

Michigan is relying on a QB with less than a season of starts to generate too much of their offense. Morris wouldn't be more effective.