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A. Garcia & B. Villarreal for Jose Iglesias (confirmed)

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Perez is crap. Compared to Santiago, Worth is like a skinny latte. And compared to Worth, Perez is like a latte with no milk. Which is what I said to begin with, crap. They tried to develop Perez into what Iglesias is, and it didn't work. Shocker. And now that they ahve Iglesias, Perez is no longer in the plans. According to the logic of some, we would be ready to DFA Perez. Or beg some GM to take him as a throw-in on a trade. But instead we'll keep him and shuttle him between AAA/MLB for a couple of seasons, or if he's lucky, he'll take the utility spot from Santiago this winter.

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Whitaker was a very good hitting prospect way above and beyond my highest hopes for Perez and Iglesias. By 1979, Trammell was ahead of my hopes for those two as well. Thinking that Perez and Iglesias can be like Whitaker and Trammell is like thinking every left-hander is going to be the next Gred Maddux.

I will add that the Tigers do not have a team of power hitters. The only power hitters are Cabrera and Fielder.

I wasn't comparing Iglesias and Perez to Tram/Lou offensively in the original post, but defensively yes.

Tram didn't sniff the .330 Iglesias is hitting for years, even if Jose is performing above his ceiling to get there--and he showed little punch as well.

The Tigers have more power than Cabby/ Fielder. Avila, Ajax and Nick C. have enough power to be threats going forward to stick in the middle of the lineup behind our be deep threats and Victor appears to be healthy again to be counted on for next year. It isn't Murderer's Row, but add in the occasional power of Hunter, Tui and Dirks an it certainly isn't a lineup that blushes at the plate.

I would be happy with either Infante or Perez starting at 2B next year.

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I'm unable to find Trammell's minor league stats, other than a site that had him hitting an impressive 19 triples in 1977 to set a record. When Trammell came up he was all glove with slightly plus speed and he had not a trace of power. Nobody confused him with Robin Yount at that time. Whitaker had a little more natural power and was the better of the two as a hitting prospect--but nobody was mentioning him in the same breath as Frank White or Joe Morgan at that time.

Both players increased their power numbers substantially with age, with Whitaker trading some average for power and Trammell's body betrayed him before he could put up sure-fire HOF numbers year-in and year-out. Who would have ever thought Trammell would ever hit the way he did back in 79? Who would have ever thought Whitaker would have ever lead the Tigers in HR for a season?

On our team full of power hitters, I would have no problem putting a rabbit like Perez in the lineup to supplant Ajax as the leadoff man or put in the #2 hole.

Alan Trammell Minor League Statistics & History - Baseball-Reference.com

Lou Whitaker Minor League Statistics & History - Baseball-Reference.com

Both hit well in the minors for middle infielders at their age and level. Yount didn't show much power until 1978 (though he did hit a bunch of doubles in his minimal time the in minors).

At 22 (1980) Tramell showed significant power for a SS at the ML level (30 XBH, 100+ ISO) which was also roughly comparable to Yount's power when he was in his early 20's (Yount took his massive step forward in power at age 24, Trammell at age 25). From a year by year standpoint they track pretty well actually. It might be true that no one confused Robin Yount when he was in his early 20's with who Robin Yount became, but developmentally they were actually similar.

Perez' problem isn't his lack of power. It's his complete inability to get on base. Hitting him at the top of the lineup is a terrible idea. Really starting him is a terrible idea. I don't think it will ever be an actual issue for the Tigers though.

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While we are on the subject of old scouting reports, here is an awesome site: Welcome to Diamond Mines | Diamond Mines

Thank me later after you get lost on it for a couple of hours.

Great find, Lee--thanks.

It confirms that there was little expectation for Tram to develop power with Lou having a little more. Overdoes it on Sweet Lou's base stealing expectations, though, but he was pretty fast back then.

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Great find, Lee--thanks.

It confirms that there was little expectation for Tram to develop power with Lou having a little more. Overdoes it on Sweet Lou's base stealing expectations, though, but he was pretty fast back then.

But Perez and Iglesias are missing more than power. They also have little plate discipline. Whitaker and Trammell were two of the best prospects in baseball in 1978. By 1979, they were way ahead of anything you could reasonably expect from Iglesias/Perez, especiallyWhitaker. Iglesias is an outstanding defender with no bat. Perez is just a fringe prospect who might become a bench player. We hope they become Infante and Santiago and even that is stretching it because of Infante's offense..

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Perez is crap. Compared to Santiago, Worth is like a skinny latte. And compared to Worth, Perez is like a latte with no milk. Which is what I said to begin with, crap. They tried to develop Perez into what Iglesias is, and it didn't work. Shocker. And now that they ahve Iglesias, Perez is no longer in the plans. According to the logic of some, we would be ready to DFA Perez. Or beg some GM to take him as a throw-in on a trade. But instead we'll keep him and shuttle him between AAA/MLB for a couple of seasons, or if he's lucky, he'll take the utility spot from Santiago this winter.

What the he'll are you talking about? Can't tell if this is sarcasm, but Perez isn't yet "developed", so we don't know how he'll turn out. He could be a solid regular or he may flame out.

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Oh no no no. Just ask anyone here. Power in the minors means absolutely nothing for power in the majors. You let Avisail get to age 23 and he'll be smacking homers left and right. If Danry Vasquez is going to be a 20 HR guy, Avisail might as well already start having his name etched at the top of the HR record books.

Incorrect. People just disagreed with your claim that 19 year olds weren't that different than 22 year olds in terms of their development.

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But Perez and Iglesias are missing more than power. They also have little plate discipline. Whitaker and Trammell were two of the best prospects in baseball in 1978. By 1979, they were way ahead of anything you could reasonably expect from Iglesias/Perez, especiallyWhitaker. Iglesias is an outstanding defender with no bat. Perez is just a fringe prospect who might become a bench player. We hope they become Infante and Santiago and even that is stretching it because of Infante's offense..

Indeed. If the Tigers are entertaining any concept Perez has shown enough to reduce the need to make a major effort to resign Infante it would be rather frightening

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Anytime I hear someone use the word silly when referencing a grown mans opinion it drives me crazy and most people on here know it which is why they use it on me so much.

I don't think people use the word silly on you that much in the first place, but to the extent they do, I doubt it is because they know it gets under your skin. My guess when the term is used it is because they think your opinion on the topic is not well supported and nothing more.

Honest question: why can't a grown man's opinion be silly? I hear silly opinions fairly regularly from adults. I'd go so far as to say grown men give them more frequently than grown women.

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Thinking that Perez and Iglesias can be like Whitaker and Trammell is like thinking every left-hander is going to be the next Gred Maddux.

There will never be another Gred Maddux. I am sure of that. ;)

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The worst part of this trade, is that we could have had Iglesias for nothing more than some cash, three years ago when he signed that 4yr/$8.25MM deal. We were in desparate need of a SS of the future back then, same as now, and we buried our head in the sand. And the thing is that he's the exact player now, that he was projected to be back then. It's not like he developed into something more than what was projected that made us suddenly take notice.

And really you can say the same thing about Veras. The Tigers had a need for two more RP this winter and signed no one. Veras was available on the cheap, and we did nothing.

Now we burn through Garcia, Danry and Villareal to get guys that we could have just signed instead. These are just the kind of mistakes that make you scratch your head, and stick out in neon given the already depleted state of our minor league system.

I happen to like this trade --- Love it actually --- But I agree with the general sentiment expressed here in this post. Especially that part in bold.

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We've been looking for a long-term answer at SS since Tram started getting banged up on a yearly basis over 20 years ago

I think Carlos Guillen was a good long term option, until the very end of that term.

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I wonder how many Detroiters said that in 1979?

And how many Detroiters said the same thing three or four years later?

Alan Trammell, age 18-19 - 277/362/372

Lou Whitaker, age 18-20 - 283/374/353

Jose Iglesias, age 20-23 - 257/307/314

Hernan Perez, age 17-22 - 255/295/345

The latter two players also play in a more offensively inclined era.

I like both Iglesias and Perez, but when you start busting out the Tram and Lou comparisons you've really got to be careful. We tend to get this around here (Detroit) anytime we have two young middle infielders who are near the MLB level at the same time (remember Infanteago?). It really sort of insults just how good Trammell and Whitaker were every time this happens. Neither of them are going to the Hall of Fame, but both of them should be there and at the very least both were borderline players, who played together for a very long time. Every major league caliber group of middle infielders isn't Tram and Lou. It's highly unlikely that there will ever be another Tram and Lou. The closest to it that I can even think of is Jimmy Rollins and Chase Utley. And they're not really even that close.

EDIT: After fact-checking my own claim, I must admit, they actually ARE kinda close. Rollins has been with Philly since 2000 and a regular since 2001. Utley has been with Philly since 2003 and a regular since 2005. Utley is better than either Tram or Lou, Rollins isn't as good as either of them but he's been pretty good, though not really at the HoF caliber. Both were key players on one championship team. Where they will fail is longevity. Utley may not last in Philly (or the majors) past this year and Rollins is also at the end of the line. They've been part of the same tandem effectively since 2005. That's 9 years. Lou and Tram doubled that.

Edited by DET Mr Malefic

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...It's highly unlikely that there will ever be another Tram and Lou. The closest to it that I can even think of is Jimmy Rollins and Chase Utley. And they're not really even that close.

No, you don't see a lot of minor leaguers with more walks than K's (Whittaker), or even 19 triples in 134 games (Trammell)

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I think Carlos Guillen was a good long term option, until the very end of that term.

Yeah, It was really sad to see Carlos breakdown physically. He was such a smart, smooth, flashy, talented player.

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Alan Trammell, age 18-19 - 277/362/372

Lou Whitaker, age 18-20 - 283/374/353

Jose Iglesias, age 20-23 - 257/307/314

Hernan Perez, age 17-22 - 255/295/345

The latter two players also play in a more offensively inclined era.

I like both Iglesias and Perez, but when you start busting out the Tram and Lou comparisons you've really got to be careful. We tend to get this around here (Detroit) anytime we have two young middle infielders who are near the MLB level at the same time (remember Infanteago?). It really sort of insults just how good Trammell and Whitaker were every time this happens. Neither of them are going to the Hall of Fame, but both of them should be there and at the very least both were borderline players, who played together for a very long time. Every major league caliber group of middle infielders isn't Tram and Lou. It's highly unlikely that there will ever be another Tram and Lou. The closest to it that I can even think of is Jimmy Rollins and Chase Utley. And they're not really even that close.

EDIT: After fact-checking my own claim, I must admit, they actually ARE kinda close. Rollins has been with Philly since 2000 and a regular since 2001. Utley has been with Philly since 2003 and a regular since 2005. Utley is better than either Tram or Lou, Rollins isn't as good as either of them but he's been pretty good, though not really at the HoF caliber. Both were key players on one championship team. Where they will fail is longevity. Utley may not last in Philly (or the majors) past this year and Rollins is also at the end of the line. They've been part of the same tandem effectively since 2005. That's 9 years. Lou and Tram doubled that.

Jeter and Cano would've made a great combination had Cano not come up a little later.

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So...... Knobler says DD tried to get Profar.....

People around the game will debate his decision to trade Avisail Garcia and Brayan Villareal for Jose Iglesias, but the sentiment Wednesday seemed to be heavily in favor of what the Tigers had done.

Garcia could turn into a star, but the Tigers needed a young shortstop now and into the future, particularly with a Biogenesis suspension looming for Jhonny Peralta.

The Tigers' public position had been that they didn't need to make a deal. Privately, Dombrowski continued to work the phones. He knew that not only were there very few available shortstops now, but that there likely won't be any more available this winter.

The Tigers, according to sources, repeatedly engaged the Rangers in an attempt to get Jurickson Profar. But even with the need for an outfield bat, the Rangers weren't interested in moving Profar for Garcia (and few would blame them). Dombrowski realized he just didn't have enough for Profar, and likely wouldn't this winter, either.

Tigers scouts loved Iglesias. They believe he will hit, and also think that with Miguel Cabrera at third base, having an outstanding defender at short is a huge plus.

Tigers' Dombrowski gets July deals done, and results show in October - CBSSports.com

Even after the Iglesias trade, I think the Tigers would be very smart to trade Scherzer to the Rangers this winter for Profar & another piece or two. Max is going to command a HUGE deal after next season, and we don't need another Verlander contract around our necks.

A middle infield of Iglesias & Profar would be lights out for our pitching staff, and more than make up having Prince & Cabrera at the corners.

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80+ OPS out of Joey Churches might work if he is Ozzie- or Omar-like in the field, and we have enough hitting to cover Joey's "hitting". We have the latter. The question is, does he supply the former?

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