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The Foxtown stop would be right at the corner of Woodward and Adams as the Inlet starts right at Grand Circus Park and you can see Adams on the map. That's not a final stop for the line, the inlet graphic shows how it would then operate south of Grand Circus Park.

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The Foxtown stop would be right at the corner of Woodward and Adams as the Inlet starts right at Grand Circus Park and you can see Adams on the map. That's not a final stop for the line, the inlet graphic shows how it would then operate south of Grand Circus Park.

Ahhh yeah...for some reason I ignored the downtown blowup part. I hope it happens, but how would it navigate around the campus martius area? There is not a lot of room there to begin with...around that loop area?

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that map is a little deceptive because it shows Woodward as going straight South to North. As a result I'm having trouble making out the streets and what's what.

Here's one from google maps.

district_zps92d7e597.jpg

For Tiger games we park in the southern most area of this district. Interestingly enough, there's something going up right now. In the block bounded by the words "Mover" and "Clifford" there was an abandoned building and within the last few weeks a bunch of big containers were placed in the field, and now they're building some type of single story wood structure. The eastern sidewalk is now blocked off. There's a few businesses in the area already. Sure hope we don't lose our lot but it's just south of the empty County Building. It's next door to a redeveloped building and across from a bar.

Apparently that is being built up as a movie set.

Transformers Transforming Grand Circus [update Pics]

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Are you saying Illitch hasn't done enough for Detroit?

I'm saying Ilitch is a mixed bag and has done things that have also prevented the growth of Detroit. Sure he renovated the Fox theater, but what has he done since? Ilitch owns upwards of 100 buildings in Detroit and most of them are gravel parking lots now. Of the top of my end I can think of the Adams Theater, Fine Arts Building, Madison-Lenox, Detroit Life, and United Artist Theater have all been left abandoned or torn down and turned into parking lots. The only thing keeping him from Matty Mouron is that he renovated the Fox and is an excellent team owner. Here's a recent article about Ilitch's property holdings.

Ilitch Has Turned Swaths of Downtown into a Wasteland - ArchiCritics - Curbed Detroit

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I'm saying Ilitch is a mixed bag and has done things that have also prevented the growth of Detroit. Sure he renovated the Fox theater, but what has he done since? Ilitch owns upwards of 100 buildings in Detroit and most of them are gravel parking lots now. Of the top of my end I can think of the Adams Theater, Fine Arts Building, Madison-Lenox, Detroit Life, and United Artist Theater have all been left abandoned or torn down and turned into parking lots. The only thing keeping him from Matty Mouron is that he renovated the Fox and is an excellent team owner. Here's a recent article about Ilitch's property holdings.

Ilitch Has Turned Swaths of Downtown into a Wasteland - ArchiCritics - Curbed Detroit

And there are stll hundreds.....hundreds of empty suite around the city....there was no need for all those building and tearing them down was EXACTLY what he should have done IMO

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Did he buy them and hang on for this very project? Seems like those buildings are all in the proposed map we're seeing.

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And there are stll hundreds.....hundreds of empty suite around the city....there was no need for all those building and tearing them down was EXACTLY what he should have done IMO

Dan Gilbert seems to have made use of a lot of vacant buildings. When there isn't a game, there is a noticeable difference between the Gilbert section of downtown and the Illitch section. He also promised an entertainment center around Comerica. I don't have faith he will develop the entertainment portion of this plan. Sure some of them needed to come down but he used taxpayer funds to take them down and create parking lots that benefit him. Some of the buildings he neglected to the point where they needed to be torn down.

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But they're his buildings correct? I don't see this obligation on his part to please other people. Concerned groups should have gotten together and bought them instead of telling others how to spend their money.

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But they're his buildings correct? I don't see this obligation on his part to please other people. Concerned groups should have gotten together and bought them instead of telling others how to spend their money.

That isn't the point. He can do what he wants with his buildings. The point is he hasn't done as much good for Detroit as some make it to be. In fact, there's some out there who say he's done more harm than good.

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That isn't the point. He can do what he wants with his buildings. The point is he hasn't done as much good for Detroit as some make it to be. In fact, there's some out there who say he's done more harm than good.

This doesn't sound like almost being Maroun. I get where you are coming from, but I think you are overstating your case.

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That isn't the point. He can do what he wants with his buildings. The point is he hasn't done as much good for Detroit as some make it to be. In fact, there's some out there who say he's done more harm than good.

I cannot fathom this thinking.....ESPECIALLY as a sports fan

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People should judge this project on its own merits, regardless of whether Illitch was involved in or not (I'm not saying completely dismiss his role, as if you think he's been good for Detroit you can give him the benefit of doubt, the opposite if you think he has not been good for Detroit)

But isn't it ironic that in "socialist" Canada 6 of 7 NHL arenas have been between 90%-100% privately funded, while in the "land of free enterprise" U.S. I can't think of any recent major pro sports stadium that has been privately funded except for San Francisco's AT&T Park.. The Canadian NHL exception being Calgary's which was built for the 1988 Olympics. And the fact that Quebec City has been hounding English Canada for taxpayer funding of its new arena irks me. If Canadians, who are by and large big hockey fans, refuse to fund sports stadiums, why should Americans, especially in southern markets where they don't even care about hockey.

What if Detroit and Michigan were to just say no to Illitch's request for public funding. You really think he'd move the team? Wouldn't square with his public image, to say the least.

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People should judge this project on its own merits, regardless of whether Illitch was involved in or not (I'm not saying completely dismiss his role, as if you think he's been good for Detroit you can give him the benefit of doubt, the opposite if you think he has not been good for Detroit)

But isn't it ironic that in "socialist" Canada 6 of 7 NHL arenas have been between 90%-100% privately funded, while in the "land of free enterprise" U.S. I can't think of any recent major pro sports stadium that has been privately funded except for San Francisco's AT&T Park.. The Canadian NHL exception being Calgary's which was built for the 1988 Olympics. And the fact that Quebec City has been hounding English Canada for taxpayer funding of its new arena irks me. If Canadians, who are by and large big hockey fans, refuse to fund sports stadiums, why should Americans, especially in southern markets where they don't even care about hockey.

What if Detroit and Michigan were to just say no to Illitch's request for public funding. You really think he'd move the team? Wouldn't square with his public image, to say the least.

If we are judging projects on their own merit, shouldn't we avoid comparing this to Canadian projects? How does it stack up against other US arenas. I would think that the sports teams in Detroit (especially the ones owned by Illitch) bring more money into the city than the city shells out for them.

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If we are judging projects on their own merit, shouldn't we avoid comparing this to Canadian projects? How does it stack up against other US arenas. I would think that the sports teams in Detroit (especially the ones owned by Illitch) bring more money into the city than the city shells out for them.

I think the research is overwhelming that the claimed economic benefits of sports teams are a sham. Even Keith Law says so, haha! Now, they might have intangible value, a "feel-good" factor for that portion of the population that enjoys hockey or that feels that having a team in each of the 4 major sports brings prestige or credibility to a city, but I think that that's a luxury that a city like Detroit can't necessarily afford. I don't blame Illitch - might as well ask for it, it's the norm these days. But if the city were to push back, what would Illitch do - you think he has all the leverage?

Field of Schemes | sports stadium news and analysis

http://media.jsonline.com/documents/LRB+143797+-+Ald+Murphy+-+Sports+Venues+Revitalization+of+Downtown+Oklahoma+City+Report.pdf

http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/regulation/2000/7/coates.pdf

The Cost of Competition - WSJ.com

Animated Infographic: Watch As America's Stadiums Pile Up On The Backs Of Taxpayers Through The Years

Subsidizing Billionaires: How Your Money is Being Used to Construct Professional Sports Stadiums

http://dontmesswithtaxes.typepad.com/No_Public_Money_for_Stadia.pdf

If You Build It, They Might Not Come: The Risky Economics of Sports Stadiums - Pat Garofalo and Travis Waldron - The Atlantic

Edited by lordstanley

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I think the research is overwhelming that the claimed economic benefits of sports teams are a sham. Even Keith Law says so, haha! Now, they might have intangible value, a "feel-good" factor for that portion of the population that enjoys hockey or that feels that having a team in each of the 4 major sports brings prestige or credibility to a city, but I think that that's a luxury that a city like Detroit can't necessarily afford. I don't blame Illitch - might as well ask for it, it's the norm these days. But if the city were to push back, what would Illitch do - you think he has all the leverage?

Field of Schemes | sports stadium news and analysis

http://media.jsonline.com/documents/LRB+143797+-+Ald+Murphy+-+Sports+Venues+Revitalization+of+Downtown+Oklahoma+City+Report.pdf

http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/regulation/2000/7/coates.pdf

The Cost of Competition - WSJ.com

Animated Infographic: Watch As America's Stadiums Pile Up On The Backs Of Taxpayers Through The Years

Subsidizing Billionaires: How Your Money is Being Used to Construct Professional Sports Stadiums

http://dontmesswithtaxes.typepad.com/No_Public_Money_for_Stadia.pdf

If You Build It, They Might Not Come: The Risky Economics of Sports Stadiums - Pat Garofalo and Travis Waldron - The Atlantic

Well, this is surprising and a bit counterintuitive to me. You would think that a good portion of that money would be recouped in taxes at least. You would also think that a city like Detroit would need teams like the Redwings as a way to get more people to the city.

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I don't know about other cities but in Grand Rapids the downtown arena resulted in a massive economic boom. The joke used to be that they rolled up the sidewalks at 5 pm. Now there is a constant flurry of activity for miles around the area that the arena was built (and this is a minor-league town). Granted that downtown Grand Rapids is much safer than downtown Detroit but with enough economic growth, the area could be safe again (and it is around game schedules if I understand it correctly).

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Without the Lions, Pistons, and Tigers, you'd lose about 4 million visitors to Detroit every year.... of that #, I bet 3.85 million would have no other reason to visit any other time of the year.

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I see where mb is coming from. I can appreciate that Mr. I has put his business ventures in the city. He could have built Comerica in Livonia or Novi. But on the other hand, every time one of these business ventures comes up, we hear how it's going to boost the city. But is Detroit in any better shape now?

As a sports fan, I like having an owner who is willing to spend. But is he spending for "me", the fan, or is he spending to satisfy his own desire for a World Series or for the financial windfall that will come from it? Ilitch is often lauded for how well he treats his "employees", meaning the players. But does he go above and beyond for the people making those crappy pizzas or those poor people at the Joe who have to tend to the restrooms? I don't think so. I don't think he's a horrible person for buying buildings and using them as parking lots, but I also don't think he's quite the saint either.

FWIW, I find the stadium funding comparison between the USA and Canada to be quite interesting. Big business isn't supposed to want the government involved in anything...except when its to make them more money. Then they want the handouts.

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Without the Lions, Pistons, and Tigers, you'd lose about 4 million visitors to Detroit every year.... of that #, I bet 3.85 million would have no other reason to visit any other time of the year.

I don't know about anyone else, but if I drive into Detroit for a game, that's the only thing I'm there for. I don't go early to eat down there or stay after the game and go out. That's the issue that Detroit continues to have. They can get people to down there, they can't get people to stay down there.

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I see where mb is coming from. I can appreciate that Mr. I has put his business ventures in the city. He could have built Comerica in Livonia or Novi. But on the other hand, every time one of these business ventures comes up, we hear how it's going to boost the city. But is Detroit in any better shape now?

Even though we are going through this emergency manager thing...I cannot imagine what 'would have been' if Illitch would have taken teams out of the city. If the Wings and Tigers played in some other city...what the heck would be downtown to go to? Casinos? If he decided to build CoPa in another city and moved the Wings to some other city...I am guessing we would have bypassed the manger guy and went straight to bankruptcy about 10 years ago.

As a sports fan, I like having an owner who is willing to spend. But is he spending for "me", the fan, or is he spending to satisfy his own desire for a World Series or for the financial windfall that will come from it? Ilitch is often lauded for how well he treats his "employees", meaning the players. But does he go above and beyond for the people making those crappy pizzas or those poor people at the Joe who have to tend to the restrooms? I don't think so. I don't think he's a horrible person for buying buildings and using them as parking lots, but I also don't think he's quite the saint either.

What does a guy have to do? I guess he should be paying those 'poor people' making his pizzas 20.00 an hour because he can afford it even though the education/work actually involved is nothing. I am not sure how many janitors cleaning toilets make 6 figures. Maybe Illitch should start a precedent?

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Even though we are going through this emergency manager thing...I cannot imagine what 'would have been' if Illitch would have taken teams out of the city. If the Wings and Tigers played in some other city...what the heck would be downtown to go to? Casinos? If he decided to build CoPa in another city and moved the Wings to some other city...I am guessing we would have bypassed the manger guy and went straight to bankruptcy about 10 years ago.

What does a guy have to do? I guess he should be paying those 'poor people' making his pizzas 20.00 an hour because he can afford it even though the education/work actually involved is nothing. I am not sure how many janitors cleaning toilets make 6 figures. Maybe Illitch should start a precedent?

Nice overreaction. Detroit will likely go bankrupt anyway. Even with Comerica, the Casinos, the Superbowl, etc, etc and all those other things that were supposed to save the city. Let Detroit rot and go bankrupt. As long as the same culture of ineptness exists in the city, it doesn't matter how many stadiums you build there.

As a small business owner who pays above average wages and benefits, I can still make a very good living and have employees who can as well. Having satisfied employees means less turnover, less training costs and brings people to my business. It's win/win for all involved.

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Nice overreaction. Detroit will likely go bankrupt anyway. Even with Comerica, the Casinos, the Superbowl, etc, etc and all those other things that were supposed to save the city. Let Detroit rot and go bankrupt. As long as the same culture of ineptness exists in the city, it doesn't matter how many stadiums you build there.

As a small business owner who pays above average wages and benefits, I can still make a very good living and have employees who can as well. Having satisfied employees means less turnover, less training costs and brings people to my business. It's win/win for all involved.

I do not think it was an over reaction at all.

'Likely go bankrupt' in 2013 is not the same as going bankrupt in 2003. Maybe it gets to that or maybe they get things cleaned up.

None of those things on their own were supposed to 'save the city'...all of those things together combined with other things happening now and in the near future MAY very well 'save the city', but to use your quote 'nice overreaction'.

I do not want Detroit 'to rot' just like I would not want the city I live in to 'rot'...I am sure you do not want the city you live in to 'rot'.

The culture of ineptness is being addressed. I am as frustrated with the council and the old mayor etc etc as anyone else, but I am not putting it ALL on the city and the people who live/work down there.

I am glad you can afford to pay above average wages. Are these people you are paying above average wages for, 16 year old teenagers? I do not go to Little Caesars very often, but when I do the people working there are teenagers. How much above average are you paying? I do not know how much Illitch is paying the kids working in his pizza shops (he does not own every Little Caesars BTW and some are independently owned so...), but maybe he IS also paying 'above average'?

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- I'm not saying there are no economic benefits to a new stadium, only that they're grossly overstated. Sure, construction workers will get jobs during the building stage (but will they be Detroiters or from the suburbs?). But concession workers will just be moved from the Joe to the new arena. Few Wings are Detroit or Michigan residents year-round - not sure of tax laws as to how much if any of income tax the state can capture from them.

- the city of Detroit can benefit to a different extent than the state of Michigan. To the extent that it's out of towners visiting Detroit, that benefits the city but is mostly just a net wash to the state of Michigan

- and like Kacie said, most of the fans attend the game and spend the money for tickets and inside the arena for merchandise and concessions. Little if any of that goes to the city or state. It will go to Illitch and vendors. Those who are going to arrive early or stick around to shop (where?!) or eat in neigbourhood restaurants are a fraction of the total.

- there is a difference in benefits between attracting a new team and simply replacing a stadium. The Joe draws 20,000 Wings fans x approx. 50 dates per year. The new arena will hold 18,000. No net increase in fans visiting the city for hockey - simply to a different part of town

- I'm not necessarily opposed to some level of public funding - but in this case it would seem like $75mm to $100mm would be a far more appropriate level than $285mm

- the rhetoric when an owner seeks public funding for private stadiums reminds me of hype for a stock; who is doing the critical due diligence rather than just blindly accepting projections and assumptions?

Edited by lordstanley

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