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ROMAD1

POTUS Impeachment Watch

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3 hours ago, CMRivdog said:

 

I believe, IMO, that this was more of a RISK AVOIDANCE vote by the Pubs than an anti-Constitutional vote. I mean, some of them, yes... but I believe they used Rand Paul as a cover story to avoid the trial more than anything.

I HOPE, that those numbers change after the trial, in voting guilty on the impeachment or not.

We'll see...

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PS: I ESPECIALLY want the Senate vote to be a secret vote, and see where the number send up that way...

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1 hour ago, smr-nj said:

I hate all of them.

He’s going to be able to walk away unscathed. Again. And this time, after having threatened them all with bodily harm, even death.

Tell me I’m wrong.

You are not wrong.  Nothing is ever going to happen to him.  People like him have a different criminal justice system than the rest of us.  

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1 minute ago, tiger337 said:

You are not wrong.  Nothing is ever going to happen to him.  People like him have a different criminal justice system than the rest of us.  

 

This guy is just the biggest **** you to Democracy, justice, the Constitution of the United States, human decency... since Hitler.

The biggest ******* scumbag on the planet. Hated this contemptible **** since 1984.

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I'd be good with this:

Censure him first.  That way you see who in the Senate approves of his behavior.

then on a 14th amendment vote (simple majority) bar him from further public office.

Then finish this Trial portion to the obvious sham conclusion where the GOP can only vote to punish by committing career suicide.

Then refer the matter to a special prosecutor to determine who was part of the conspiracy and criminal charges

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42 minutes ago, ROMAD1 said:

I'd be good with this:

Censure him first.  That way you see who in the Senate approves of his behavior.

then on a 14th amendment vote (simple majority) bar him from further public office.

Then finish this Trial portion to the obvious sham conclusion where the GOP can only vote to punish by committing career suicide.

Then refer the matter to a special prosecutor to determine who was part of the conspiracy and criminal charges

it's a fair point that if they can disqualify him by majority vote they should do it and save everyone the rest of the effort. Impeachment is going nowhere in this Senate. The current GOP wouldn't convict the Sahara of having sand if they thought it could save them a primary fight. OTOH, disqualification is the only practical result of the impeachment anyway and for the Dems a DQ will accomplish exactly what they want, which is that Trump will get bored with politics if he can't run again to get his vengeance on everyone and so will almost certainly fade away politically, and with him the remaining energy in the GOP.

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1 hour ago, 84 Lives!!! said:

 

This guy is just the biggest **** you to Democracy, justice, the Constitution of the United States, human decency... since Hitler.

The biggest ******* scumbag on the planet. Hated this contemptible **** since 1984.

Thank God he's a moron.  

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I do think the Trial needs to happen.   I also think Trump needs to be made to answer questions in the dock.  If that has to be a courtroom outside the Senate so be it. 

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This episode of Frontline, "Trump's American Carnage" is really something.

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3 hours ago, tiger337 said:

Thank God he's a moron.  

Geez that's gotta be the ONLY thing that saved this country from him.

That and maybe that he's gutless as well... A Gutless Moron?

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2 hours ago, ROMAD1 said:

I do think the Trial needs to happen.   I also think Trump needs to be made to answer questions in the dock.  If that has to be a courtroom outside the Senate so be it. 

I think you can forget about him ever showing up to testify in the Senate, and there is this small problem of the 5th amendment that will protect him from ever having to testify in criminal proceeding against him.

But the more I think about it, just disqualify him. Does anyone seriously think Trump is going to run around the country doing political rallies for other people's benefit? Never going to happen, he is no Stacey I'm-out-there-doing-it-for-the-principle-even-if-I'm-not-on-the-ballet Abrams. Take away the possibility of winning office for himself and Trump will exit the political stage faster than your Trump University Tuition turns into bad debt. This is a narcissistic socio-path remember - he's not going to be out there building the new populist GOP so the like of Cruz or Hawley can benefit. That would rate well down in his personal Maslow's hierarchy from another round of golf.

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2 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

... just disqualify him...

That's what I want more than anything else.

Santa can I have a DQ Trump for Christmas?

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8 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I think you can forget about him ever showing up to testify in the Senate, and there is this small problem of the 5th amendment that will protect him from ever having to testify in criminal proceeding against him.

But the more I think about it, just disqualify him. Does anyone seriously think Trump is going to run around the country doing political rallies for other people's benefit? Never going to happen, he is no Stacey I'm-out-there-doing-it-for-the-principle-even-if-I'm-not-on-the-ballet Abrams. Take away the possibility of winning office for himself and Trump will exit the political stage faster than your Trump University Tuition turns into bad debt. This is a narcissistic socio-path remember - he's not going to be out there building the new populist GOP so the like of Cruz or Hawley can benefit. That would rate well down in his personal Maslow's hierarchy from another round of golf.

I've been wondering if this is possible sans impeachment conviction.   I'm actually a little not sure I think it's a good idea, it seems like that would lead to the majority party eliminating any competitors through a majority vote in the chambers of congress, and there's no doubt in my mind it would be abused.

For instance, it's really not that much of a stretch to think the GOP w/ control over both chambers of congress could/would DQ Joe Biden over wHeRe'S HuNtEr?!? 

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Big props for the Senators who hold these two positions simultaneously.  Having the audacity to argue this is quite impressive!

1) Trump won the 2020 election

2) Can't impeach a president that's not in office anymore. 

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I would love to see Trump on video pleading the fifth.

 

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But he would not use it incorrectly.  Then we'd have to hear some lawyer on Fox News say that he actually did use it correctly.  That would eventually morph into "he didn't actually say it" and finally Obama said something similar once.  

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50 minutes ago, pfife said:

Big props for the Senators who hold these two positions simultaneously.  Having the audacity to argue this is quite impressive!

1) Trump won the 2020 election

2) Can't impeach a president that's not in office anymore. 

So, while I don't want to back the GOP on the impeachment, James Wallner was a guest on the Bulwark podcast yesterday and offered some strong evidence on why #2 may be correct.

https://podcast.thebulwark.com/chait-and-wallner-on-filibusters-and-impeachments

I'm not going to lie, I think I agree with him, but hate that I agree with him.  It would mean Trump gets to continue his rule over the GOP, but frankly, as much as I had hoped, that looks to be the case anyway.   I am actually annoyed at this but, he is basing his decision on what I would take as a very federalist view.  But it's a view that I agree with.  But the GOP has been so hypocritical that I won't be upset if they get burned by an impeachment anyway.  I hate the precedent it might give, but at the same time, really hope a Trump presidency is a huge outlier when future generations look at the past.

I don't know which way to go, feel like a hypocrite myself for still wanting impeachment anyway.  I really have railed on the media for, what I believe, was putting feelings over facts on Trump right from the beginning.  (Not looking to go down that road again and not saying Trump wasn't bad, just saying there was plenty on Trump that was bad and did need to be reported but all to often salacious reports that often were exaggerated were mixed in and led to more mistrust from people like me).  Here, i'm basically saying I want the legislative branch to overstep because I like the idea of the outcome.  I don't know, just torn.

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2 hours ago, pfife said:

I've been wondering if this is possible sans impeachment conviction.   I'm actually a little not sure I think it's a good idea, it seems like that would lead to the majority party eliminating any competitors through a majority vote in the chambers of congress, and there's no doubt in my mind it would be abused.

For instance, it's really not that much of a stretch to think the GOP w/ control over both chambers of congress could/would DQ Joe Biden over wHeRe'S HuNtEr?!? 

this a fair point - one has to look over the horizon to all the possible unintended consequences/precedents. 

Still, if the GOP wants to keep protecting him, so be it. I don't see it ending well for them even if they succeed.

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19 hours ago, ROMAD1 said:

The trial needs to happen.  This was discouraging. 

And yet completely predictable.

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23 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Didn't even get Portman. I just don't get why the GOP is so damn determined to go over the cliff with Trump - which is what is going to happen in the end. Trump lost a chunk of his winning coalition in 2017 and never got it back and he lost and even bigger chunk on January 6 and they are never coming back either. I guess if a state is red enough it doesn't matter to a Senator if the GOP continues to lose the Presidency 400-135 as far out into the future as the eye can see, because that is probably where we are now.

It is just a measure of how empty they must think their own appeal is that they don't believe they have anything to offer if they do the only remotely honorable thing and bury Trump. 

Maybe they're calculating that their real power comes while they are on the outs, since Trump's appeal was always as an outsider even when he was the most "in" anyone could get. The dogs caught the car and, not that they didn't know what to do with it, but they chose to do nothing with it while they had it.

The Senate is no longer a legislating body. It's a judge-making machine.

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15 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

it's a fair point that if they can disqualify him by majority vote they should do it and save everyone the rest of the effort. Impeachment is going nowhere in this Senate. The current GOP wouldn't convict the Sahara of having sand if they thought it could save them a primary fight. OTOH, disqualification is the only practical result of the impeachment anyway and for the Dems a DQ will accomplish exactly what they want, which is that Trump will get bored with politics if he can't run again to get his vengeance on everyone and so will almost certainly fade away politically, and with him the remaining energy in the GOP.

I wonder whether on balance the Dems honestly believe that there is actual shame for Trump in trying him in the Senate a second time. But you can't shame the shameless, and all that will be accomplished is proving that impeachment is a toothless sanction.

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12 hours ago, pfife said:

This episode of Frontline, "Trump's American Carnage" is really something.

That's one of those things where, I can read about it for a few minutes on the Interwebs, but I can't put it on my TV, sit down in my easy chair, and let it wash over me for a whole hour. It's so goddam depressing.

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3 hours ago, ewsieg said:

So, while I don't want to back the GOP on the impeachment, James Wallner was a guest on the Bulwark podcast yesterday and offered some strong evidence on why #2 may be correct.

https://podcast.thebulwark.com/chait-and-wallner-on-filibusters-and-impeachments

I'm not going to lie, I think I agree with him, but hate that I agree with him.  It would mean Trump gets to continue his rule over the GOP, but frankly, as much as I had hoped, that looks to be the case anyway.   I am actually annoyed at this but, he is basing his decision on what I would take as a very federalist view.  But it's a view that I agree with.  But the GOP has been so hypocritical that I won't be upset if they get burned by an impeachment anyway.  I hate the precedent it might give, but at the same time, really hope a Trump presidency is a huge outlier when future generations look at the past.

I don't know which way to go, feel like a hypocrite myself for still wanting impeachment anyway.  I really have railed on the media for, what I believe, was putting feelings over facts on Trump right from the beginning.  (Not looking to go down that road again and not saying Trump wasn't bad, just saying there was plenty on Trump that was bad and did need to be reported but all to often salacious reports that often were exaggerated were mixed in and led to more mistrust from people like me).  Here, i'm basically saying I want the legislative branch to overstep because I like the idea of the outcome.  I don't know, just torn.

I don't have the time to listen to the podcast, but the constitution is pretty clear that it is the House's sole power to impeach, and the Senate's sole power to hold the trial.  What is the basis for claiming the Senate is not acting constitutionally when the constitution literally gives them the sole power to do it?

 

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1 hour ago, pfife said:

I don't have the time to listen to the podcast, but the constitution is pretty clear that it is the House's sole power to impeach, and the Senate's sole power to hold the trial.  What is the basis for claiming the Senate is not acting constitutionally when the constitution literally gives them the sole power to do it?

 

He focuses here:


"The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for,
and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors."

and 

"Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law."

The purpose of impeachment is to remove "President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States" from Office.  Trump is no longer president.  As a citizen, he has a right to a jury trial for any criminal matters.   Additional the only other thing they can do is disqualify him from future positions, but again, he's not the president right now. 

Even if you think it's OK to impeach him, that could mean he doesn't get convicted, but they do prohibit him from running again.  So he could be found not guilty and still get punished.  I mean it's Trump, i'd live with that, but it doesn't seem right.

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