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Deleterious

2013 Pistons Offseason

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People who say Dwight Howard can’t carry a team must have forgot the average team he carried to the NBA finals. I challenge anyone to tell me how that Magic team was anything more than average without Dwight. Who was their 2nd best player?

His injuries limited some of his ability, but Dwight is an absolute beast.

I can see Drummond being just as good as Dwight in due time. They possess many of the same positive traits (good defense, ability to work off a pick and roll, attack the paint, rebound, and run the fast break). The also possess many of the same negative traits (bad free throw shooting, unrefined post moves, no jump shot). The one area where Dwight really used to his advantage was his ability to hit open shooters in Orlando. Drummond will have to develop that skill.

Overall, he has great upside, but it will take a commitment to conditioning and skill development for Drummond to get to what Dwight Howard was/is.

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People who say Dwight Howard can’t carry a team must have forgot the average team he carried to the NBA finals. I challenge anyone to tell me how that Magic team was anything more than average without Dwight. Who was their 2nd best player?

His injuries limited some of his ability, but Dwight is an absolute beast.

I can see Drummond being just as good as Dwight in due time. They possess many of the same positive traits (good defense, ability to work off a pick and roll, attack the paint, rebound, and run the fast break). The also possess many of the same negative traits (bad free throw shooting, unrefined post moves, no jump shot). The one area where Dwight really used to his advantage was his ability to hit open shooters in Orlando. Drummond will have to develop that skill.

Overall, he has great upside, but it will take a commitment to conditioning and skill development for Drummond to get to what Dwight Howard was/is.

They had 3 guys make the All-Star game that year. 4 guys averaged over 16 PPG and that rarely happens. I'm not sure I would describe them as average.

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They had 3 guys make the All-Star game that year. 4 guys averaged over 16 PPG and that rarely happens. I'm not sure I would describe them as average.

True, Lewis and Nelson did make the all star team. But Rashard Lewis, Courtney Lee, Hedo and Jameer Nelson would have made an average starting lineup with Dwight. Nelson and Lewis were beneficiaries of Howard that season. Dwight absolutely carried that team.

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My comment was mostly in response to NYLion talking about Howard's post game.

However, in response to your comments, I'm not trying to say Howard is a bad player, just not top 5. That simply means that if we're re-drafting the NBA and I'm picking somewhere in the top 5, he's not on my board. Maybe not the top 10 (Lebron, Paul, Durant, Rose, Parker, Wade, Westbrook, Harden, Mello, maybe Gasol). As far as talent goes, he competes with some of the guys at the end of that list, but his attitude kills it and pushes him further down in my eyes. I might even consider guys like Curry, Lillard, or Drummond over him as well on potential. I didn't even mention Kobe or Duncan who some people would still put in their top 5 even with their age. I just don't see how Howard cracks the top 5 in that list.

Del, those agility numbers are pretty awesome. They were doing the NBA TV Pistons preview the other day and the guys on there were raving about Drummond's agility, especially for his size. You look at some of the things Howard can do on the defensive side of the ball and offensively in the paint, then think about a guy who's even bigger, can jump almost as high, and is somehow more agile - wow. The potential is off the charts. I really hope he reaches it, because it's going to be fun to watch.

Howard most certainly did develop somewhat of a post game after his early years. Once he developed that baby hook in the lane, he went from being a raw, athletic freak to a legit superstar big. He never had a very polished post game like Duncan but it most certainly was/is a threat to defenders. Those of you who think that Howard's entire game is based on dunks and putbacks haven't been watching him closely enough.

Edited by NYLion

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I don't know why everyone keeps talking about Howard leading a scrub team to the Finals. That team goes no where without Hedo. Howard WAS a beast, 5 years ago. He has lost a considerable step. He still has zero offensive skills.

His athletic ability is unquestioned, he has all of it, but yet he has the worst attitude in the game. That is really what makes him so unattractive, he held Orlando hostage because he couldn't make a decision, and then complained his way through a season with LA. He is nowhere near a top 5 talent.

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Howard most certainly did develop somewhat of a post game after his early years. Once he developed that baby hook in the lane, he went from being a raw, athletic freak to a legit superstar big.

I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Howard still has no post game and no baby hook. He may try and use a baby hook, but it isn't a good one or a go to move when he his having a bad game. Offensively he is the same player as when he entered the league.

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I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Howard still has no post game and no baby hook. He may try and use a baby hook, but it isn't a good one or a go to move when he his having a bad game. Offensively he is the same player as when he entered the league.

Oh Vey. I never said it was a go to move and he never had a GREAT post game, i said that he has it in his arsenal and that he was more than just a dunker. When he was at the top of his game in Orlando, he most certainly had that baby hook in his game even if it was inconsistent.

I think his regression over the last few years has clouded some judgment of his overall game when he was leading Orlando deep in the playoffs.

Edited by NYLion

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Oh Vey. I never said it was a go to move, i said that he has it in his arsenal. When he was at the top of his game in Orlando, he most certainly had that baby hook in his game even if it was inconsistent.

If it's not consistent, it's not in your game. It's like saying Stuckey has 3 point shooting in his arsenal. Sure, he can shoot it, but it isn't the right choice for a shot. Dwight scores by over powering people. I watched a ton of Lakers games this past season, it was really comical to watch Dwight down low, he didn't even know what foot to pivot off of.

I suspect he will get a lot of help in Houston though.

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If it's not consistent, it's not in your game. It's like saying Stuckey has 3 point shooting in his arsenal. Sure, he can shoot it, but it isn't the right choice for a shot. Dwight scores by over powering people. I watched a ton of Lakers games this past season, it was really comical to watch Dwight down low, he didn't even know what foot to pivot off of.

I suspect he will get a lot of help in Houston though.

I guess our criteria of post up game is different.

Tyson Chandler and Ben Wallace have/had no post up game. Dwight Howard most certainly has a semblance of a post up game.

Just because he's not Duncan in the post doesn't mean that he has no post up game. I think you're making a judgment of Howard the Laker. If you look back to his Orlando days, he definitely had the threat of a post game, it's why he evolved into a premier big man and a guy who demanded double teams which in turn, made those Orlando players much better than they really were.

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I guess our criteria of post up game is different.

Tyson Chandler and Ben Wallace have/had no post up game. Dwight Howard most certainly has a semblance of a post up game.

Just because he's not Duncan in the post doesn't mean that he has no post up game.

Yeah, I would equate the post up moves of Howard to either wallace or chandler. Howard was just much bigger than Wallace and much more athletic than chandler. Like I said, he doesn't even know what foot to pivot off of. But again, he will get all the training he needs in Houston.

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I guess our criteria of post up game is different.

Tyson Chandler and Ben Wallace have/had no post up game. Dwight Howard most certainly has a semblance of a post up game.

Just because he's not Duncan in the post doesn't mean that he has no post up game. I think you're making a judgment of Howard the Laker. If you look back to his Orlando days, he definitely had the threat of a post game, it's why he evolved into a premier big man and a guy who demanded double teams which in turn, made those Orlando players much better than they really were.

I don't agree with why he became a premier big man. He was bigger and stronger than everyone, that is why he became a premier big man. He demanded double teams because if you left him one on one he would dunk on you. The Pistons used to play Howard one on one and beat the magic like they owned them. Once Shaq got older and lost his quick feet he still helped teams with his passing and superior post game. When Dwight had his surgery and lost a bit of his athleticism it really highlighted how poor of a player he really is in the post. Not one team thinks Dwight Howard has any post moves.

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I don't agree with why he became a premier big man. He was bigger and stronger than everyone, that is why he became a premier big man. He demanded double teams because if you left him one on one he would dunk on you. The Pistons used to play Howard one on one and beat the magic like they owned them. Once Shaq got older and lost his quick feet he still helped teams with his passing and superior post game. When Dwight had his surgery and lost a bit of his athleticism it really highlighted how poor of a player he really is in the post. Not one team thinks Dwight Howard has any post moves.

You're underselling how good he was in Orlando pre-back injury. Most of his dunks came off of putbacks and lobs, not one on one moves. He was becoming a more diverse scorer and yes, he used his power a lot of times but he also developed a semblance of a post game which made him an even bigger threat.

Again, you're referencing his post-Orlando days by mentioning that he lost a step since the surgery. Before his back injuries started flaring up, he was an all around beast. Again, not a GREAT post up game but the threat was there when he wasn't dunking the ball. Now, he's a shell of what he used to be.

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I don't know why everyone keeps talking about Howard leading a scrub team to the Finals. That team goes no where without Hedo. Howard WAS a beast, 5 years ago. He has lost a considerable step. He still has zero offensive skills.

His athletic ability is unquestioned, he has all of it, but yet he has the worst attitude in the game. That is really what makes him so unattractive, he held Orlando hostage because he couldn't make a decision, and then complained his way through a season with LA. He is nowhere near a top 5 talent.

Hedo was a huge part of their success. People forget how well he ran the pick and roll. They just killed the Cavs with it in their playoff series and Hedo was the trigger man essentially acting as the PG. 4.9 assists per game in the regular season and 4.8 in the playoffs for a 6'10" guy playing PF?

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Hedo was a huge part of their success. People forget how well he ran the pick and roll. They just killed the Cavs with it in their playoff series and Hedo was the trigger man essentially acting as the PG. 4.9 assists per game in the regular season and 4.8 in the playoffs for a 6'10" guy playing PF?

At least someone gets it. Howard was at his best when Hedo was running the offense from the wing or top of the key.

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True, Lewis and Nelson did make the all star team. But Rashard Lewis, Courtney Lee, Hedo and Jameer Nelson would have made an average starting lineup with Dwight. Nelson and Lewis were beneficiaries of Howard that season. Dwight absolutely carried that team.

But Lewis had 3 seasons in Seattle over 20 PPG and another AS game. I mostly wanted to point out Howard wasn't playing with a ton of scrubs. I agree those guys benefited from playing with Howard.

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At least someone gets it. Howard was at his best when Hedo was running the offense from the wing or top of the key.

No, i "get it". Yes, Howard was at his best in the pick and roll but to say that he had no post game is just wrong.

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No, i "get it". Yes, Howard was at his best in the pick and roll but to say that he had no post game is just wrong.

That's your opinion. Most people won't agree with you.

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That's your opinion. Most people won't agree with you.

If you say so.

Again, Chandler and Big Ben had no post game. If you think that Howard is in that category then you are misinformed.

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This is from the Orlando playoff run that year and probably my biggest complaint about Howard. He simply does not exist on offense at the end of close games. It is also why big men must shoot 60% from the FT line.

In 2009, in the playoffs, playing for the Magic, in the 4th quarter or overtime, 2:00 or less left in quarter, scoring margin between -5 and 5 points, sorted by descending Field Goal Attempts.

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Howard most certainly did develop somewhat of a post game after his early years. Once he developed that baby hook in the lane, he went from being a raw, athletic freak to a legit superstar big. He never had a very polished post game like Duncan but it most certainly was/is a threat to defenders. Those of you who think that Howard's entire game is based on dunks and putbacks haven't been watching him closely enough.

Yah, he's no Tim Duncan, but he's not Tyson Chandler either.

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I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Howard still has no post game and no baby hook. He may try and use a baby hook, but it isn't a good one or a go to move when he his having a bad game. Offensively he is the same player as when he entered the league.

You simply cannot average 18-20 ppg on put backs and dunks.

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Hedo was a huge part of their success. People forget how well he ran the pick and roll. They just killed the Cavs with it in their playoff series and Hedo was the trigger man essentially acting as the PG. 4.9 assists per game in the regular season and 4.8 in the playoffs for a 6'10" guy playing PF?

All the things you are saying about Orlando are true and I'm probably guilty of underselling them. However, they simply do not make the Finals with a Marc Gasol or Tyson Chandler at C. Can we agree there?

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At least someone gets it. Howard was at his best when Hedo was running the offense from the wing or top of the key.

Ya, big men will play their best with someone who can run the pick and roll and shoot the 3 ball. And?

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Sure you can.

Not in the NBA. Not even close. Like I said, Dwight is nowhere close to great as a post player, but a guy like Larry Sanders would love to have his post game. Its the difference between their scoring outputs.

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