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drownwithyou

2013-2014 Red Wings Roster Moves, Injuries, Whatever Thread

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Sounds like the scouts left right after draft...this really screws the Wings and at a terrible time for the organization....Wonder if Nill had an axe to grind , he really did it to them !

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Something odd is going on here, folks. Players don't want to come here. Young players only play when there are several injuries, scouts leave.

Really, 3 years for Dan Cleary? THREE FREAKING YEARS ?!?!?!

And I'm telling you that if Bertuzzi, Samuelssen and Cleary are all playing, 2 out of 3 of Nyquist, Andersson and Tatar are back in Grand Rapids, they have already mastered the AHL, they won the Calder Cup....nothing more for them to gain there.

This does not compute.

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DRW Euro scouts > DRW NA scouts.

You guys act like there is no one behind them to replace them.

"Scotty is leaving the organization!! OH NOES THE SKY IS FALLING!" Everyone knows how that turned out, right?

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DRW Euro scouts > DRW NA scouts.

You guys act like there is no one behind them to replace them.

"Scotty is leaving the organization!! OH NOES THE SKY IS FALLING!" Everyone knows how that turned out, right?

Two Chicago Cups in four years?

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Two Chicago Cups in four years?

I was talking about the Wings organization, not Chicago. Also, its easy to load up your team when youre last in the league and stack #1 draft picks like they did. They got bailed out after the financial mess they put themselves in. I have no idea how the Oilers arent doing better.

The Wings organization kept trucking along just fine, and will be fine.

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Geesh, two scouts gone isn't going to kill the organization. Not only is Shinma right about Euro scouts being more important, but the Wings have always stood out in player development more than in drafting.

Edited by lordstanley

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I don't think nill has an axe. He wanted to be a GM. Its natural. He's worked closely with those 2 scouts for years so they went with him.

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Something odd is going on here, folks. Players don't want to come here.

.

You must have had quite a party on the 4th and slept through yesterday's signings.

A for Cleary, it is not what I wanted but trust Babcock on this, he loves him and sees a role for him.

And as for Sammy, there is no indication that he is in the Wings plans for next year. Like Drown reminded everyone, they couldn't buy him out because he was claiming to be injured. He could easily get the Ian White treatment next year.

The Wings have plenty of youth now, especially on D. A few depth vets isn't a bad thing. You need a mix. Ask Edmonton.

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I don't think nill has an axe. He wanted to be a GM. Its natural. He's worked closely with those 2 scouts for years so they went with him.

Exactly. Like most industries, you move up by moving out. And even if on paper it is a lateral moe, people sometimes want a change and a new challenge. Like most industries.

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So where was the destination of choice that everyone flocked to? It wasn't Vancouver, the Kings, the Rangers, the Hawks, the Blues, the Habs, the Pens? I'm stumped. And what signing did we miss out on - 7 years for Clarkson? 5 years for Lecavalier? 6 years for Horton who is injured until at least Chrostmas and has a concussion history? I'm stumpes here too.

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6 years for Horton who is injured until at least Chrostmas and has a concussion history? I'm stumpes here too.

The price for Horton, 5.3 mil/year, was a good deal, injury or not. Your getting a guy that shoots from the left side, averages 28 goals per season, produces in the playoffs, uses his size like a physical power forward should and is under the age of 30. I would have signed Horton for what Columbus gave him, dollars and years. Horton is exactly what this team needed and still needs. I would not have signed Stephen Weiss and just held down the fort at Center with Z/Dats/Andersson/Helm until Calle Jarnkrok was ready to be called up, which could be this year. Based on the Wings needs IMO, Horton > Weiss.

My forward lines would have been...

Franzen/Zetterberg/Alfredsson

Nyquist/Datsyuk/Horton

Tatar/Andersson/Bertuzzi

Miller-Eaves/Helm/Abdlekader

Edited by Mr.TaterSalad

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You must have had quite a party on the 4th and slept through yesterday's signings.

And as for Sammy, there is no indication that he is in the Wings plans for next year. Like Drown reminded everyone, they couldn't buy him out because he was claiming to be injured. He could easily get the Ian White treatment next year.

.

Maybe Uwe Krupp is his agent.

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FWIW, Tatar, Nyquist and Andersson cannot play any longer in Grand Rapids. They must play with the big club or be traded. Well, they could be optioned but they would have to go through waivers.

This offseason to me just looks like a total cluster****. Like last season, Holland doesn't seem to have a plan. He's signed 356 forwards, but half the defense is young and unproven at best, so he used one of the two buyouts we had to buyout an experienced d-man. So now if someone goes down during the season or the young guys struggle, we have no one to step in. The Wings have some good young talent, but no place to put them.

Lecavalier was supposedly too old, but a 40 year old Alfredsson isn't? Don't want Bobby Ryan because he didn't play well in the playoffs, but we want Weiss who's never been to the playoffs? Cleary who is 34 and is painfully slow is worth 3 years at 3 million but Filppula isn't worth 5 years 5 million?

I'm really trying to understand the method to Kenny Holland's madness, but right now, I'm stumped.

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Cannot disagree more on the Scouts and Development ! Sorry, feel that Scouts are the lifeblood and this really cripples the Wings.

What evidence do we even have that Joe McDonnell and the East Coast scout were even that good at their jobs. Scouts are just information sources not decision makers, the Wings most notable outlier picks that were successes were from Europe, and I won't change my mind that player development is as important as drafting - a lot happens between the time you draft a player at 18 and he makes the NHL at 22. The hysterical tweets yesterday of that freelance writer Sarah Landenau who happens to contribute to a prospects board redwings central.com were amusing.

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FWIW, Tatar, Nyquist and Andersson cannot play any longer in Grand Rapids. They must play with the big club or be traded. Well, they could be optioned but they would have to go through waivers.

This offseason to me just looks like a total cluster****. Like last season, Holland doesn't seem to have a plan. He's signed 356 forwards, but half the defense is young and unproven at best, so he used one of the two buyouts we had to buyout an experienced d-man. So now if someone goes down during the season or the young guys struggle, we have no one to step in. The Wings have some good young talent, but no place to put them.

Lecavalier was supposedly too old, but a 40 year old Alfredsson isn't? Don't want Bobby Ryan because he didn't play well in the playoffs, but we want Weiss who's never been to the playoffs? Cleary who is 34 and is painfully slow is worth 3 years at 3 million but Filppula isn't worth 5 years 5 million?

I'm really trying to understand the method to Kenny Holland's madness, but right now, I'm stumped.

I didn't like the Colo buyout, for the same reason you cited, but I think we could replace him. You're right, there are question marks on the defense - Smith, Quincey and Lashoff. I would have liked to have seen the Wings go after Rob Scuderi or Andrew Ference. Both signed for around $3.25mm. Although Scuderi's choice of Pittsburgh and Ference's choice of Edmonton were both homecomings and unclear whether they truly tested the open market.

I think the Ryan and Weiss situations is apple and oranges. Weiss was free; Ryan would have cost Nyquist, Jamrock and next year's number one ( although to be honest, I probably would have offered that).

And again, no comparison between Lecavalier's 5 years and 1 year for Alfredsson. Alfie plays a style that can be effective at 40 and that fits into the Wings. It doesn't annoy me the Wings didn't sign Lecavalier - the rest of the league backed away from Philly's offer - but I definitely would not have capped an offer to him at 2 years like it appears the Wings did.

Something went down with Brunner we don't know about. No one scooped him up yet, so why don't the Wings try to sign him now? Sounds like there was some kind of irreconcilable breaking point between the team and player/agent.

And a reminder that Cleary still isn't signed. I don't think the Wings are that high on him. They already have factored in I'm sure that the 3rd year if he does sign will be a write off they will need to eat. What happened to the Brendan Morrow talk?

I don't think this offseason has been a cluster****. But nor do I think the Wings were one of the decisive winners, as many pundits on Friday were saying. Somewhere in between.

Edited by lordstanley

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Perhaps Brunner is sticking to a number that no team is willing to meet and when he realizes he's not going to get paid for a good half-season he can reopen talks with the Wings.

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What evidence do we even have that Joe McDonnell and the East Coast scout were even that good at their jobs. Scouts are just information sources not decision makers, the Wings most notable outlier picks that were successes were from Europe, and I won't change my mind that player development is as important as drafting - a lot happens between the time you draft a player at 18 and he makes the NHL at 22. The hysterical tweets yesterday of that freelance writer Sarah Landenau who happens to contribute to a prospects board redwings central.com were amusing.

Eighteen years in the organization !, was Nill's choice as Director of Scouting WITH Wings, was Holland's choice to replace Nill in directing all scouting, Leach was with the Wings for years.... I admit, I don't have the opportunity to read the reports, listen to the meetings, make decisions....etc..., but , I've seen the Wings with scouts who couldn't select talent, couldn't find prospects, and I'd rather have a known talent than a pig-in-a-poke hope ! Nill also ran development, now Martin....let's see...The times have changed on European prospects....even the Wings lean less heavily on European talent. I'm not going to besmirch other's opinions, nor a writer's opinions, but this doesn't bode well and will take a supreme effort to keep the team moving on in my opinion. I don't think a strongly held opinion is hysterical, but I bow to your obvious supreme knowledge on this topic .

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Cannot disagree more on the Scouts and Development ! Sorry, feel that Scouts are the lifeblood and this really cripples the Wings.

As Stanley has pointed out, Europe has been very generous to the Red Wings. Hakan Andersson and his European staff have been mining late round gems out of Europe for a while now. If we lost Andersson to Jim Nill and the Stars, then I'd be upset about this situation. As it stands now, I don't think losing a couple of North American scouts sets us back much, assuming Holland and Devellano are competent enough to replace them with two quality individuals.

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I didn't like the Colo buyout, for the same reason you cited, but I think we could replace him. You're right, there are question marks on the defense - Smith, Quincey and Lashoff. I would have liked to have seen the Wings go after Rob Scuderi or Andrew Ference. Both signed for around $3.25mm. Although Scuderi's choice of Pittsburgh and Ference's choice of Edmonton were both homecomings and unclear whether they truly tested the open market.

I think the Ryan and Weiss situations is apple and oranges. Weiss was free; Ryan would have cost Nyquist, Jamrock and next year's number one ( although to be honest, I probably would have offered that).

And again, no comparison between Lecavalier's 5 years and 1 year for Alfredsson. Alfie plays a style that can be effective at 40 and that fits into the Wings. It doesn't annoy me the Wings didn't sign Lecavalier - the rest of the league backed away from Philly's offer - but I definitely would not have capped an offer to him at 2 years like it appears the Wings did.

Something went down with Brunner we don't know about. No one scooped him up yet, so why don't the Wings try to sign him now? Sounds like there was some kind of irreconcilable breaking point between the team and player/agent.

And a reminder that Cleary still isn't signed. I don't think the Wings are that high on him. They already have factored in I'm sure that the 3rd year if he does sign will be a write off they will need to eat. What happened to the Brendan Morrow talk?

I don't think this offseason has been a cluster****. But nor do I think the Wings were one of the decisive winners, as many pundits on Friday were saying. Somewhere in between.

Perhaps my analogies weren't the best, but frustration took over! I wasn't high on VL but the buzz was that Holland thought he was too old and slow and then he signs a 40 year old. He was cheaper than Weiss for the same amount of years and I felt like VL brings more offense, which I felt was sorely lacking with the Wings. Though I know Cleary isn't official, all signs point to the fact its a done deal pending the Wings shedding other players.

I don't think Ryan is the messiah by any means, but again, the lack of scoring and size is of concern to me. Bigger, consistent 30 goal scorer, 26, reasonable cap hit sounded appealing to me. Barring a major miracle or a really stupid GM, we can't get rid of Bert and Sammy. So they're going to have to get rid of someone and Eaves, Emmerton, Tootoo isn't going to yield much if anything. So it would seem like Tatar or Nyquist will have to go, especially if Helm is healthy. I didn't hate the Drew Miller signing, but Eaves' cap hit is under a million and they bring pretty much the same skill set to the table.

I would have been ok with Alfie and Weiss had we lost Cleary, Bert and Sammy. I sure would have preferred Brunner instead of Cleary, but I don't think he was the missing link, but I liked that he shot the puck.

I feel like Weiss over Flip is a mostly lateral move.

Like you, I don't feel like this is the second coming of Hull, Robitaille and Hasek in 2002 and that the Wings are instant cup favorites. I have this bad feeling that the team that showed up for most of the regular season more what we're dealing with as opposed to the team that showed up the last 10 games and in the playoffs.

I'm also concerned that the Wings will be playing 82 games this season. How Kindl, Smith, Lashoff and DK will handle that is an unknown. Quincey is still not the solid top 4 guy that Ken Holland is trying to sell us on. I feel like the lack of offense from the D and the inability to make good breakout passes was a factor in the lack of offensive production. Kronwall and Ericsson look a lot less "offensive" with out Nick Lidstrom. I was hoping that would be addressed, and maybe it will, but Holland's reluctance to make trades for anything but a draft pick doesn't make me hopeful.

No idea how moving to the East will effect things, but I'll be curious to see how it all turns out.

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Everybody FREAK OUT!

I don't see anyone freaking out, but I think it's a good discussion to have. I can't say I have enough knowledge to know how important these scouts are and how it will effect things long term, but its certainly a worthy topic.

What late round gems has Hakan Andersson found since Datsyuk and Zetterberg? I feel like the Wings got in early on European players but it isn't the pipeline it once was.

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I'm not going to besmirch other's opinions, nor a writer's opinions, but this doesn't bode well and will take a supreme effort to keep the team moving on in my opinion. I don't think a strongly held opinion is hysterical, but I bow to your obvious supreme knowledge on this topic .

Lol, no obvious supreme knowledge, we all have opinions. But I think things are rarely as extreme black and white as some people make them out to be. Sarah Lindenau was over the top yesterday. Tweet after tweet of doom and gloom about how the loss of these two scouts was the end of the world. She comes from the world where it is all about "prospect pool" and "young core" and "generational talents" and where the most important thing in the world is to show how "my 21-23 year olds are better than your 21-23 year olds".

Then George Malik wrote about it. Malik is broke and ill (an observation not a criticism) and it manifests in his writing with his run-on sentences and his recent tendency to post at least one expletive-exclamation mark headline per day. Some people just need to go outside and chill a bit and they'll realize things aren't all bad. No need to kick their dogs or yell at the top of their lungs from atop the Ambassador Bridge or stick their head in a microwave- which are the images that come to mind when I read their writings.

I like Winging It In Motown for passionate yet even-keeled commentary on the Wings.

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What late round gems has Hakan Andersson found since Datsyuk and Zetterberg? I feel like the Wings got in early on European players but it isn't the pipeline it once was.

Ericsson? And then we have some good european forwards coming up in the draft, and these late round Swedes aren't always going to pan out but I'd rather have him picking them.

My freak out was mostly towards the guy who said the Wings aren't a destination and complained about Cleary signing.

I do think you're being a bit dramatic as well, but such is this messageboard.

PS I don't believe Nyquist is subject to waivers next year, but Tatar is.

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