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11/22/12. Texans @ Lions. CBS, 12:30pm. Thanksgiving Day.

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Schwartz screwed up with the flag and that's inexcusable for a professional coach. Still, I don't like the ESPN headline of "Lions Lose On Schwartz' Error". The worst offenders on that play were the officials. They blew an obvious call, with the player down wiith 2 or 3 body parts. For decades that would have been a blown ref call, period. Just because we have a mechanism in place to help reverse some bad calls doesn't mean the refs should be left off the hook for sloppiness and incompetence. And as for the rule, I still don't see what advantage a coach would be trying to get in throwing a flag on a play that's going to be reviewed anyways. Is it also a 15 yard unsportsmanlike penalty if a QB steps back from the line and calls a timeout at the exact moment that the 2 minute warning is hit? Just let him pick up the flag, like declining a penalty. Or have it count as his challenge so that he loses it if the review goes against him - that way he's worse off anyways compared to if the automatic review had gone against him.

Edited by lordstanley

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Honestly guys, this team isn't that bad. They have hung with just about everyone and a few bounces here and there and they have a winning record.

I think we just need to get rid of some of the stains (KVB, Logan, Pettigrew), have a strong off season and come back strong next season. We have great building blocks. Franchise QB; he really needs a more stable OL though. I'm not going to deny the fact that he makes erratic throws even w/o pressure but it's just ridiculous at times. The right side of the line is scary bad and I'm surprised Stafford isn't on the IR because of them. Two stud defensive tackles; they really work well together. And of course Calvin.

They have nice complimentary players like Ryan Broyles (that pick was so awful wasn't it?), Tony Scheffler and Joique Bell. Mike Thomas didn't look half bad either today.

Defense needs some work but they have a few nice pieces.

Basically, hit the draft (hoping they land a stud OT or stud DE), cut the fat and go from there. Maybe we could pursue a top flight corner if we don't get stupid and re-sign Avril? That would be nice.

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What did you do with the real MC24?!!!?

I'm more rational after games than I am during games. :wink:

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Broyles looks good. I really don't think the Lions are that far from being a very good team. They need someone on the D-Line to actually dominate like they're supposed to, of all people Fairley seems to be stepping up in that regard the last few weeks, they need starting safeties that aren't day to day or on the IR for the entire season. Could always improve the O-Line...

Of course, that's why it's so frustrating that they keep losing in incredibly stupid fashion. For years when you said 'same old lions' it didn't mean much, for all the dumb mistakes they might make the team flat out sucked, they weren't going anywhere anyway.

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Easy to say from the couch. When you're on the field and you see a player clearly down, the play is over. You aren't constantly asking yourself "Do I hear a whistle? Do I hear a whistle? Do I hear a whistle? Do I hear a whistle? Do I hear a whistle? Do I hear a whistle? Do I hear a whistle? Do I hear a whistle? Do I hear a whistle? Do I hear a whistle? Do I hear a whistle? Do I hear a whistle? Do I hear a whistle? Do I hear a whistle? Do I hear a whistle? Do I hear a whistle? Do I hear a whistle? Do I hear a whistle? Do I hear a whistle? Do I hear a whistle? Do I hear a whistle? Do I hear a whistle?"

Well Foster didn't hear a whistle and kept going. Sorry, it's one of the first things drilled into Junior Varsity players. You play until the whistle. Kudos for Foster for paying attention, because I am not even sure he bought his own B.S., but not hearing a whistle he said "what the hell?". The difference between a winning mindset and a losing and undisciplined mindset that our team offers us. Sorry the truth hurts you so much.

But as much as that play sucked from so many angles, the Lions still had the lead and they blew that lead in the fourth quarter.

They sort of quit after that bad play today, and as much criticism as I can lay on the Lions, I never thought I'd say that about them.

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But come on, lets be realistic, their chance at the playoffs ended with the second Minnesota loss, they're just jockeying for a draft pick at this point, and at 5-11 or 6-10, they should be back in the Top 10, too bad Mayhew will spend it on a position they don't need.

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But come on, lets be realistic, their chance at the playoffs ended with the second Minnesota loss, they're just jockeying for a draft pick at this point, and at 5-11 or 6-10, they should be back in the Top 10, too bad Mayhew will spend it on a position they don't need.

No receivers worth a top 10 pick and he won't take a DT. Lets be real now.

I've never understood why people have a big problem with Mayhew's drafting. I'd honestly say he's one of the better drafting GM's in the league and he does great with trades.

Just because we have a losing record doesn't necessarily mean this is a bad team or anyone should be fired.

Edited by MC24

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Also - even with me being the hater of Suh I usually am. That "incident" today was beyond ridiculous. It's absolutely stupid that people think that was intentional. Does nobody realize how physics works? It's impossible to keep your leg from rolling over exactly like that given how the rest of Suh's body rolled. That couldn't have been avoided unless Suh was a ballerina or contortionist that could somehow manage to force his leg, already moving in one direction with the rest of his body, to all of a sudden switch directions and go the opposite way of the rest of his body.

Oh come on, Suh knew exactly what he was doing there. He clearly kicked his foot forward towards the nuttal region of Schwab. If he had just naturally let his leg fall back from the angle that he was falling, there's no way that he makes contact with Schwab's crown jewels, it was a dirty dirty play.

With that being said, where the hell has this Suh been all season? He was incredibly disruptive, just an absolute force. We hadn't seen this Suh since the first half of last season.

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Honestly guys, this team isn't that bad. They have hung with just about everyone and a few bounces here and there and they have a winning record.

I think we just need to get rid of some of the stains (KVB, Logan, Pettigrew), have a strong off season and come back strong next season. We have great building blocks. Franchise QB; he really needs a more stable OL though. I'm not going to deny the fact that he makes erratic throws even w/o pressure but it's just ridiculous at times. The right side of the line is scary bad and I'm surprised Stafford isn't on the IR because of them. Two stud defensive tackles; they really work well together. And of course Calvin.

They have nice complimentary players like Ryan Broyles (that pick was so awful wasn't it?), Tony Scheffler and Joique Bell. Mike Thomas didn't look half bad either today.

Defense needs some work but they have a few nice pieces.

Basically, hit the draft (hoping they land a stud OT or stud DE), cut the fat and go from there. Maybe we could pursue a top flight corner if we don't get stupid and re-sign Avril? That would be nice.

Agreed, there is a lot of talent on this team, they really aren't THAT far off. If they cut some of the dead weight. (The coaching staff included), add some help to the back 7 and some Oline depth and this team will be ready to take the next step. There are a lot of good pieces to work with at the key positions especially if Suh and Fairley can build on their recent strong play.

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I wish people would stop falling in to this Lions trap every single year. Every year, it's "oh, well they have this guy and this guy and seem like they're coming around" and it NEVER happens. Then last year, the playoff appearance happens and people jump on the bandwagon. "Oh, I knew they would turn the corner!" and then here we are the next season, back to the same old Lions. I'm done falling in to the trap. There is no silver lining with this team. It doesn't matter what kind of talent is on the field when the coaching staff and management are incompetent at their jobs or at utilizing the talent on the field. And it doesn't matter if there's an amazing coaching staff and the talent on the field is lacking. There will always be something wrong to put this team in the direction of the nearest drain.

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Coaches Challenge:

In each game, a team will be permitted two challenges that will initiate Referee Replay reviews, except for plays when the on-field ruling results in a score for either team, after the two-minute warning of each half, and throughout any overtime period. Each challenge will require the use of a team timeout. If a challenge is upheld, the timeout will be restored to the challenging team. A challenge will only be restored if a team is successful on both of its challenges, in which case it shall be awarded a third challenge, but a fourth challenge will not be permitted under any circumstances. A team may challenge an on-field ruling up until the next legal snap or kick. If there is a foul that prevents the next snap, the team committing that foul will no longer be able to challenge the previous ruling. No challenges will be recognized from a team that has exhausted its time outs. A team that is out of time outs or has used all of its available challenges may not attempt to initiate an additional challenge. Penalty: For initiating a challenge when all of a team’s time outs have been exhausted, when all of its available challenges have been used, after the two minute warning of either half, during an overtime period, after a scoring play, or after a foul that prevents the next snap: Loss of 15 yards.

Replay Official’s Request for Review. After the two-minute warning of each half, throughout any overtime period, and after all scoring plays, any Referee Review will be initiated by a Replay Official. There is no limit to the number of Referee Reviews that may be initiated by the Replay Official. He must initiate a review before the next legal snap or kick and cannot initiate a review of any ruling against a team that commits a foul to prevent the next snap. His ability to initiate a review will be unrelated to the number of time outs that either team has remaining, and no time out will be charged for any review initiated by the Replay Official.

Schwartz was doing none of these things.

This was a poor interpretation of an awful rule. I am absolutely blaming the refs and NOT Schwartz on this.

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Coaches Challenge:

In each game, a team will be permitted two challenges that will initiate Referee Replay reviews, except for plays when the on-field ruling results in a score for either team, after the two-minute warning of each half, and throughout any overtime period. Each challenge will require the use of a team timeout. If a challenge is upheld, the timeout will be restored to the challenging team. A challenge will only be restored if a team is successful on both of its challenges, in which case it shall be awarded a third challenge, but a fourth challenge will not be permitted under any circumstances. A team may challenge an on-field ruling up until the next legal snap or kick. If there is a foul that prevents the next snap, the team committing that foul will no longer be able to challenge the previous ruling. No challenges will be recognized from a team that has exhausted its time outs. A team that is out of time outs or has used all of its available challenges may not attempt to initiate an additional challenge. Penalty: For initiating a challenge when all of a team’s time outs have been exhausted, when all of its available challenges have been used, after the two minute warning of either half, during an overtime period, after a scoring play, or after a foul that prevents the next snap: Loss of 15 yards.

Replay Official’s Request for Review. After the two-minute warning of each half, throughout any overtime period, and after all scoring plays, any Referee Review will be initiated by a Replay Official. There is no limit to the number of Referee Reviews that may be initiated by the Replay Official. He must initiate a review before the next legal snap or kick and cannot initiate a review of any ruling against a team that commits a foul to prevent the next snap. His ability to initiate a review will be unrelated to the number of time outs that either team has remaining, and no time out will be charged for any review initiated by the Replay Official.

Schwartz was doing none of these things.

This was a poor interpretation of an awful rule. I am absolutely blaming the refs and NOT Schwartz on this.

What part of "after a scoring play" do you not understand? Remember Schwartz yelling LEARN THE F**KING RULES at Harbaugh last year for throwing an improper red flag. Well, he needs to eat those words because he reacted emotionally and did not assess the situation before making a decision. I was watching, I was saying "they're gonna review it, they're gonna review it" and Schwartz had already thrown the red flag. If he would have acted in a more professional manner, they might have made the call on their own, if they hadn't he would have had every right to be pissed and throw the flag. I do love the fact that he is firey sometimes (my tagline here is FEAR THE SCHWARTZ) but he needs to dial it down, because his team acts like he does and it's now become a reputation thing....and once that happens its really hard to get a fair shake from the refs or media, which can influence how a ref sees someone. It was a **** call by the refs, but if they'd played until the whistle, none of this happens at all. Yes, they had every reason to believe he was down, but when the runner got up and didn't hear the whistle he thought "okay, might as well keep going......" Smart play on his part.

As far as Mayhew, do you really think he is great at drafting? Hard to miss when you have No 1 or No 2 picks like Stafford, Suh or Calvin, but I am not impressed with Pettigrew and his drops, Titus and his idiocy and the character issues with Fairley and Leshoure that he should have caught. Yes, he is much better than Matt Millen, but put a dog treat with player names with it on the floor and have my dog make picks and he could have been better than Millen.......and yes I am serious about that. Again, the Lions are an 8-8 team that had good luck last year and bad luck this year. They're aren't that good, they are one of about 20 8-8 teams in the NFL that have a record determined on breaks or mistakes. Good special teams and they might be 7-4 at this point, maybe even 8-3. But they have a lot of money tied up in just a few players, one of them will probably have to be traded at some point. Schwartz will get another year with a top 10 pick and a last place schedule, but he needs to grow up and act like a coach instead of a player.

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Coaches Challenge:

In each game, a team will be permitted two challenges that will initiate Referee Replay reviews, except for plays when the on-field ruling results in a score for either team, after the two-minute warning of each half, and throughout any overtime period. Each challenge will require the use of a team timeout. If a challenge is upheld, the timeout will be restored to the challenging team. A challenge will only be restored if a team is successful on both of its challenges, in which case it shall be awarded a third challenge, but a fourth challenge will not be permitted under any circumstances. A team may challenge an on-field ruling up until the next legal snap or kick. If there is a foul that prevents the next snap, the team committing that foul will no longer be able to challenge the previous ruling. No challenges will be recognized from a team that has exhausted its time outs. A team that is out of time outs or has used all of its available challenges may not attempt to initiate an additional challenge. Penalty: For initiating a challenge when all of a team’s time outs have been exhausted, when all of its available challenges have been used, after the two minute warning of either half, during an overtime period, after a scoring play, or after a foul that prevents the next snap: Loss of 15 yards.

Replay Official’s Request for Review. After the two-minute warning of each half, throughout any overtime period, and after all scoring plays, any Referee Review will be initiated by a Replay Official. There is no limit to the number of Referee Reviews that may be initiated by the Replay Official. He must initiate a review before the next legal snap or kick and cannot initiate a review of any ruling against a team that commits a foul to prevent the next snap. His ability to initiate a review will be unrelated to the number of time outs that either team has remaining, and no time out will be charged for any review initiated by the Replay Official.

Schwartz was doing none of these things.

This was a poor interpretation of an awful rule. I am absolutely blaming the refs and NOT Schwartz on this.

This phrase - "cannot initiate a review of any ruling against a team that commits a foul to prevent the next snap" - is incredibly hard to understand. In today's circumstances, wouldn't the review have been against the Texans? At any rate the rule is not only difficult to understand, it also effectively says "The NFL is so determined to keep a coach from showing up an official that we don't even care to get the actual call on the field correct." It is petty and stupid - which is effectively what Mike Periera said when asked about it during the Skins-Cowboys game.

This year's Lions team:

1. They haven't been able to sneak up on anybody this year like they did last year.

2. They made it into the NFL's middle class last year, after spending years in the NFL's lower class. Even though their record will not be nearly as good this year as last, their talent level is more or less the same - and with Stafford, Johnson, and Suh, they're not going to slip back into the lower-tier of teams.

3. They lack discipline and composure, just like their coach. We need a head coach who can maintain composure - Schwartz has been able to get us from 0-16 to slightly above average, but he will not get us the rest of the way and should go at the end of the season. There is absolutely no excuse for this team to finish 4th in NFC North, and to get beat twice by Minnesota, and by Tennessee, and there's no excuse for Schwartz's mistake today.

4. The numbers say that the offense is at the top of the league, but my eyes tell me that this offense is out of sync and leaves far too many plays on the field. Linehan has had enough time to work with Stafford, the OL, the running game. (Incidentally, where was the running game at the end of regulation when we had first down and needed 5-7 yards to get into range for a long FG attempt?) There is too much talent on that side of the ball for there still to be so much sloppiness. I want Linehan gone too.

5. Pettigrew should be coached NOT to fight for more yards. He is huge and strong and can drag tacklers... but he has proven he can't do that and secure the ball. So coach him to wrap it up in both arms, and protect it from contact.

6. I'm actually pleasantly surprised with the defense the past few weeks. They have given up fewer big running plays than earlier this season, the DBs are playing more aggressive, and we are getting more pressure on QBs. If we pick up a top-20 CB in the draft, and maybe another DB in 2nd or 3rd round, the defense could actually become a strength.

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How about a little silver lining folks...

Seems like Stafford is having an "off" year, yet he's already thrown for nearly 3500 yards. With 4 games still to play. Despite all the other crap going on with this team, we DO have a franchise quarterback to continue building around - something this team has never had. He's only 24 years old.

Now if we can just get a coaching/management team together to build a team around Stafford...

Maybe it's just me, but I can't get past that sidearm sling thing that he does. I can see on occasion it's necessary, but I thought Stafford's biggest asset was his arm strength? How is it utilized by that sidearm approach? It gets the job done sometimes, but it drives me insane! Don't know whether it's Stafford, the receivers or the coaching, but way too many times in the past few weeks there have been passes that have missed by a mile. I think 5 or 10 years ago, you could say "he's only 24", but things have changed drastically in that regard. He just hasn't looked like a franchise quarterback this season.

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Oh come on, Suh knew exactly what he was doing there. He clearly kicked his foot forward towards the nuttal region of Schwab. If he had just naturally let his leg fall back from the angle that he was falling, there's no way that he makes contact with Schwab's crown jewels, it was a dirty dirty play.

With that being said, where the hell has this Suh been all season? He was incredibly disruptive, just an absolute force. We hadn't seen this Suh since the first half of last season.

After rewatching the video a number of times, I agree with you. Suh definitely extended that lower leg towards the groin region on the way down. It was not a natural progression of him getting pulled to the ground. (obvious hold by the way).

Edited by Porcelain God

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After rewatching the video a number of times, I agree with you. Suh definitely extended that lower leg towards the groin region on the way down. It was not a natural progression of him getting pulled to the grown (obvious hold by the way).

No he didn't, watch it at full speed. He isn't a ninja, he's a 300 lb lineman. Nothing to see here people.

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No he didn't, watch it at full speed. He isn't a ninja, he's a 300 lb lineman. Nothing to see here people.

He did thrust his leg out. I don't think he was aiming at any particular region of the QB - he's not that nimble, but he did give his leg a little extra umph when it whipped around - and Schaub looked like a European soccer player too with his bad acting job. It was a little bit dirty.....maybe a smudge, but not what Boomer was saying.

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Maybe that was his body's natural reaction to balance itself out? He wasn't trying to kick him.

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I haven't seen it again, but my initial reaction was that Suh probably realized he could keep his leg out there and hit the quarterback with it just "to get his attention" to just make some contact. I didn't think he was specifically going to a region of the body and probably had no clue if he'd hit his body. He just knew keeping the legs out like that was something he probably could get a bit away with so he didn't make the extra effort not to hit him.

Either way, I didn't look at it as a super dirty play but I didn't think it was "totally by accident either." I don't think it's a suspendable offense or even something that should give him a fine. If it was anyone else, the play wouldn't be getting this much attention. Of everything that happened yesterday, this was the last thing I was thinking about after the game.

I'll have to look at it more later to get a second look.

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People are going to see what they want to see. It's exciting to think that Suh tried to kick him so obviously he must have.

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I was at the game and the Suh kick wasnt even noticed by anyone in my area, was this CBS trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill?. from the video it looks like Suh is trying to disrupt Schaub by making contact.

As far as the Forsett play... The Ref scored up period he was down clearly in live action ... Schwartz screwed up but he should not had been in a spot where he could... it seems like the ref's have got lazy and dont pay that close attention because they always have replay to fall back on. I don't understand the need to penalize a team who throws a flag on a scoring.... what does it hurt to throw the flag??? it seems like thats just the NFL saying dont second guess our refs.

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Just get rid of challenge flags. Keep replays on scoring plays and in the last 2 minutes and OT.

Why? Because our coach doesn't know the rules and is a hot head we need to just scrap the whole thing? I don't think so, I actually think its a good system and if Schwartz acted like a coach yesterday instead of a player, this might not have happened. But I have a feeling that if he hadn't thrown the flag, they would have upheld the touchdown because there was no whistle - and that would have been wrong too. Maybe the league just wants to build as much evidence as possible to take this game away from the Lions. Nine losses in a row builds that case......

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