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RedRamage

ShortStop - What are the options?

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and BP has him at -6 DRAA. So who ya gonna believe?

Personally, I don't think Peralta's defense was much of a negative factor other than a bit early in the season, but I can't prove it one way or the other anymore than any of these systems can.

All we can do in my opinion is compare the stats to the other shortstops

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The Reds are looking for a leadoff man that plays the outfield.....How about sending them Quinten Berry and perhaps Porcello?

You mean they are looking for Billy Hamilton...

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All we can do in my opinion is compare the stats to the other shortstops

But different systems rate them differently relative to each other as well.

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Zack Cozart will be a star..... It must be true. Red's longtime broadcaster Marty Brenneman said so. And he has seen a couple of good ones over the years....Dave Concepcion and Barry Larkin.

What would it take to get Cozart? The Reds are looking for a leadoff man that plays the outfield.....How about sending them Quinten Berry and perhaps Porcello?

It is the true the Reds need a CFer but Berry is a AAAA player and Walt isn't stupid. Any conversation the Tigers have with Walt for Cozart begins and ends with Rondon. The Reds are looking for a closer so they can move Chapman to the rotation. In other words....these two teams are a bad fit.

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Any conversation the Tigers have with Walt for Cozart begins and ends with Rondon.

Get it done DD!

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so why are we so worried about Peralta's defense when the stats show he's better than we all think? Only JJ Hardy and Brendan Ryan had a better UZR (fangraphs) and led the AL (2nd to Ian Desmond .855) in RZR Revised Zone Rating at .853.

Revised Zone Rating (RZR) measures, “the proportion of balls hit into a fielder’s zone that he successfully converted into an out”

Rating RZR

Excellent 0.940

Great 0.900

Above Average 0.860

Average 0.835

Below Average 0.800

Poor 0.750

Awful 0.700

So he's just below "Above Average" I admit we read and here enough about how bad his range is, but the numbers don't seem to correlate with that the last couple seasons. That's what we want right, make outs on the plays that enter your zone?[/QUOTE]

There is no way that Peralta makes the plays that enter his zone (not to mention the plays that Cabrera can't get to either). He makes the plays that are hit right at him, a couple steps to the left or right, or soft ground balls hit over 2nd due to him always shading up the middle.

Our defensive standards for shortstops have dwindled over the years and fortunetly the Tigers had Inge at third to compensate. With Cabrera at 3rd now, a shortstop with no range comes to hurt the team much more. I know the arguemnt will come back with "would you rather have a guy who ranges to make the spectacular plays but boots the routine plays?". And my answer would be yes. Chances are pretty good that same guy who can range to make plays also can run the bases. Offense 1st is a priority at too many positions with this team.

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There is no way that Peralta makes the plays that enter his zone (not to mention the plays that Cabrera can't get to either). He makes the plays that are hit right at him, a couple steps to the left or right, or soft ground balls hit over 2nd due to him always shading up the middle.

Our defensive standards for shortstops have dwindled over the years a...

so you're saying the baseball info solutions stringers are all biased some mystery factor when they watch Detroit play?

Edited by Gehringer_2

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Tigers apparently believe Eugino Suarez will be the starting shortstop in 2014. I have heard multiple reports that they think he will be ready by then and why Peralta's option was picked up!

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Tigers apparently believe Eugino Suarez will be the starting shortstop in 2014. I have heard multiple reports that they think he will be ready by then and why Peralta's option was picked up!

I think Peralta's option was picked up because they need a shortstop right now and $6 million is a good deal for him. I hope people are not counting on Suarez to be ready to start in 2014. He's an interesting prospect, but he's far from a sure thing. He's had one good year in A-ball.

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What happened to the Cale Iorg love!

i hadn't checked on on him in a while. i know about his weaknesses as a prospect, but WTF happened this year?!?

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so you're saying the baseball info solutions stringers are all biased some mystery factor when they watch Detroit play?

According to Colin Wyers at BP and others, there is evidence that there is a problem with bias according to how players position themselves. What might be happening is that sometimes stringers incorrectly mark location based on where a player is positioned. For example, they might instinctively record a ball as in the zone if it's close to a player even if the player happens to be playing out of zone. So, if a SS typically positions himself differently than other shortstops, there might be some bias.

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According to Colin Wyers at BP and others, there is evidence that there is a problem with bias according to how players position themselves. What might be happening is that sometimes stringers incorrectly mark location based on where a player is positioned. For example, they might instinctively record a ball as in the zone if it's close to a player even if the player happens to be playing out of zone. So, if a SS typically positions himself differently than other shortstops, there might be some bias.

so that raises an interesting question. If a shortstop is more dedicated to his craft, studies hitters relentlessly and so positions himself more optimally than other shortstops (or maybe is just gifted with total recall of where he has fielded balls against every player - whichever doesn't matter) should he get credit for that? What do we care about, his absolute ability to cover ground or his ability to contribute to outs? I don't think the answer to this is always clear cut - though it should be explicit in an advanced stat's statement of what it is trying to measure, or alternatively in an intelligent critique of what it is actually measuring! :wink:

Edited by Gehringer_2

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so that raises an interesting question. If a shortstop is more dedicated to his craft, studies hitters relentlessly and so positions himself more optimally than other shortstops (or maybe is just gifted with total recall of where he has fielded balls against every player - whichever doesn't matter) should he get credit for that? What do we care about, his absolute ability to cover ground or his ability to contribute to outs? I don't think the answer to this is always clear cut - though it should be explicit in an advanced stat's statement of what it is trying to measure.

The key for me is a player's ability to turn batted balls into outs whether he does it with range or positioning or arm or whatever combination. I think that is what the advanced stats are intended to measure. How well they are working, especially over small sample sizes, is questionable.

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Tigers apparently believe Eugino Suarez will be the starting shortstop in 2014. I have heard multiple reports that they think he will be ready by then and why Peralta's option was picked up!

Where did these multiple reports come from? I have to question their validity. If the Tigers were going to fast-track him I don't think they would have left him in the MWL all year.

To be ready by opening day 2014, they'll probably have to start him in Erie this year, or have him spend very little time in Lakeland. But leaving him in WM all year says a lot more than these reports do.

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I understand that teams would be reluctant to trade within their division. However, I read that the Indians are taking offers for their SS Cabrera. I plead that Dombrowski would get this deal done. Porcello, Castellanos, and somebody else for Cabrera. This guy is a gem and is only 26.

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Where did these multiple reports come from? I have to question their validity. If the Tigers were going to fast-track him I don't think they would have left him in the MWL all year.

To be ready by opening day 2014, they'll probably have to start him in Erie this year, or have him spend very little time in Lakeland. But leaving him in WM all year says a lot more than these reports do.

When Suarez received a short time in Lakeland in 2011, he was fast if he got on base. But he was far from ready to play at that level and can not imagine anyone is claiming him to be ready by 2014.

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I understand that teams would be reluctant to trade within their division. However, I read that the Indians are taking offers for their SS Cabrera. I plead that Dombrowski would get this deal done. Porcello, Castellanos, and somebody else for Cabrera. This guy is a gem and is only 26.

Well we traded for their last shortstop, so why not this one? I'd love to have him. I think you might be giving up too much though.

eidt: I'm surprised Asdrubal has never posted an .800 OPS. Would not have guessed that. The last two years he's really flamed out in the 2nd half.

Edited by Yoda

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Henning today makes a pitch for the tigs to trade Peralta and play Worth. I sure hope he is misinformed.

OTOH, he also drops a note about the curveball possibly being Porcello's ticket to redemption. I wonder if that is just a Henning swag or if the Tigs actually have wanted him to throw it more.....?

Amid offseason frenzy, Detroit Tigers need to take a measured approach | The Detroit News | detroitnews.com

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I think over the years that fielding% and the ability to make the routine play has almost become underrated, particularly with short stops. I think with all the errors that SS make nowadays that something needs to be said about a guy like Jhonny that doesn't make any. Sure he doesn't get to as many but if a relative high percentage of those balls that others get to they turn into errors anyway how much more valuable are they? I don't think it's any coincidence that Jhonny has scored well the past 2 seasons on UZR, and that is that there is alot of value to a guy that makes all the plays he should. So where in years past people would discount range and only look at fielding percentage when determining a fielder, I'm starting to get the impression that nowadays people discount FP and only look at range, which is an equally flawed way to look at things.

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I can almost feel a threeway type deal that would send Jhonny to Oakland, pending Stephen Drew's status with Oak. As the As have expressed an interest in acquiring a offensive oriented SS. Coco Crisp to Cincy...whos been deemed expendable after acquiring Chris Young from Arizona recently giving Oak a sick OF quartet of CY, Cespedes, SSmith and Reddick. Gregorio or Cozart flipped to Detroit.

But all in all the likelyhood of predicting a three team trade is about as pointless as denying the reality that Jhonny Peralta will be the Tigers starting SS in 2013, and will continue to recieve a vast majority of fan backlash for appalling defense.

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I imagine Oakland would want the Cincy SS Over Peralta and Cincy would need more than Crisp for one of those guys.

Fwiw, I don't think Cabrera is any sort of significant upgrade from Peralta

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I sort of feel Peralta would be a "don't know what you got 'til it's gone" situation.

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I sort of feel Peralta would be a "don't know what you got 'til it's gone" situation.

I am on board with this to some degree. I would love better defense but his offense, even while not good, is pretty good for a shortstop.

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