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2012-13 Offseason Discussion

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The bench must be improved bigtime.

I think this is a bigger issue than is usually recognized. We didn't have a single bench player make a significant contribution this yr. Laird maybe. That really puts a lot of pressure on the performance and health of everyone else.

DD has to revamp his approach as he has allowed our bench to get too old. Bench players need to be of two types and only two types: Younger (pre 'peak' or <28) marginal guys, who are at least not declining, or very good older guys who can no longer play full time- Visquel being the prototype for the 2nd class.

Edited by Gehringer_2

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If you have ESPN Insider, Jim Bowden has an article about the Tigers and how to improve in the off-season.

5. Give Leyland another year (go year-to-year with him)

I guess bottom line is I'm tired of the drama with Leyland. His inability to cut bait on bad players, his refusal to pay attention to OBP at the two and 5 spots in his line-ups, going down with the ship with Valverde instead of recognizing and preparing for his ultimate implosion before it became a crisis in the playoffs, constantly trying to stretch more outs from clearly spent or ineffective pitchers than they have in them, the over-commitment to platoon match ups when the player removed is still better overall even against opposite hand pitchers. The overall balance has tipped for me.

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I guess bottom line is I'm tired of the drama with Leyland. His inability to cut bait on bad players, his refusal to pay attention to OBP at the two and 5 spots in his line-ups, going down with the ship with Valverde instead of recognizing and preparing for his ultimate implosion before it became a crisis in the playoffs, constantly trying to stretch more outs from clearly spent or ineffective pitchers than they have in them, the over-commitment to platoon match ups when the player removed is still better overall even against opposite hand pitchers. The overall balance has tipped for me.

Is that really Leyland's issue? He has to play the players he's given by DD. Yes, guys have sucked or struggled for us, but what else can Leyland do?

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Is that really Leyland's issue? He has to play the players he's given by DD. Yes, guys have sucked or struggled for us, but what else can Leyland do?

No, he doesn't have to play them, not nearly as much. And Jim absolutely has a lot of pull with the 25-man roster.

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Holy over reaction batman! Leyland has been the skip for 7 years and we went the the WS twice in that time. Made the playoffs 4 times. I hope he comes back. Anyone that seriously thinks he 'costs us more games than he wins' does not watch enough of the other teams IMO. We were HUGE over achievers this year. I am one of the biggest slappies you will see, but I never expected a WS out of them this year....not seriously anyway. I hoped for it of course, but I didn't rationally think they would make it.

Getting there and getting blown out sucked, but I was still glad they were there.

As far as other changes....

I would like to see them get a little more speed so guys can go first to thirrrd next year. There were dozens of times this past year where I just assumed a guy would be standing on thiird after a hit to RH and they pan in to show someone at 2nd. Frustrating.

Maybe that guy comes from the outfield position or maybe someone new at SS. I would not terribly mind Peralta coming back at the right price and I am not sure who is available at SS next year.

Thanks for the memories Delmon, you were one of our best hitters in the playoffs, but you do have to go.

Hopefully they re sign Sanchez and release Valverde. Where does that leave the #5 starter? Porcello? Smyly? Some trade? I have no idea, but I like our top 3 and would love our top 4 if Anibal comes back.

I have always liked Coke in the pen and Al Al even though he was barely used in the playoffs I like him as well. Dotel, Benoit also.

I like Infante at 2nd. Obviously nothing is changing at first or thiiird. I would love to have Laird back as a back up...unless they go out and sign a GREAT offensive catcher to make Avila the back up, but I think Avila will bounce back next year. He has a great eye at the plate IMO and just needs to harness some of that power.

AJ will be the main stay at center for awhile IMO and I like Dirks in the outfield as well.

How many pieces are we away from being better? Kind of hard to be better than making the WS IMO, but we need to try of course. Martinez coming back (as long as he plays to his career norms) will be HUGE IMO....almost like a free agent signing really.

Having another guy to hit 20+ HR's would be nice as well.

So in recap I guess I would not mind a new SS and another OF, maybe a new closer (or just another bullpen guy and do it my committee), but I would love to see a little more speed on the team.

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To me, SS is the key. I assume they pick up Peralta's option, but then try to trade him. I assume they don't have the pieces to get Andrus (I would not trade Max, but DD might), but Elvis would be the best player to get for this team long and short term. I could see them going with a Brendan Ryan-type if they do this:

Resign Sanchez

Trade Porcello for Dexter Fowler

Sign Hunter (whose son just committed to play WR at Notre Dame)

Keep Garcia and Castellanos at Toledo for at least 3 months

and because DD cannot stop himself, sign Affeldt for 3/$15

Jackson ®, Fowler (S), Cabrera ®, Fielder (L), Martinez (S), Hunter ®, Avila (L), Infante ®, Defensive SS

Dirks, Laird or another RH C, Worth, one more from Toledo

Verlander-Sanchez-Fister-Scherzer-Smyly

Benoit, Dotel, AA, Villareal, Coke, Affedlt, one more from Toledo

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I think DD's biggest challenge this off-season is building depth. The Tigers are a very top heavy team, and it showed during the season.

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Is there money to sign Sanchez? I imagine he will be demanding some pretty big dollars.

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Might as well have the list of FA on here if we're gonna talk about it.

A less than stellar group, with a few stars in there that will break the bank. No point in spending money on a guy like Josh Hamilton, but if you don't believe Garcia is ready I would take a flyer on a guy like Johnny Gomes for a year. Or see about signing BJ Upton & putting him in RF (If the price is right, which it probably won't be)

I think we have to replace Peralta & get someone with better range.

If we don't re-sign Sanchez, I'd be okay with a guy like Kuroda. Don't break the bank on RP.

I'd also re-sign Laird.

Link

SP

Scott Baker, MIN *

Erik Bedard, PIT

Joe Blanton, LAD

Bartolo Colon, OAK

Aaron Cook, BOS

Kevin Correia, PIT

Jorge De La Rosa, COL *

Ryan Dempster, TEX

R.A. Dickey, NYM *

Scott Feldman, TEX *

Gavin Floyd, CWS *

Jeff Francis, COL

Freddy Garcia, NYY

Zack Greinke, LAA

Jeremy Guthrie, KC

Rich Harden, OAK

Dan Haren, LAA *

Roberto Hernandez, CLE *

Edwin Jackson, WAS

Hiroki Kuroda, NYY

Francisco Liriano, CWS

Kyle Lohse, STL

Derek Lowe, NYY

Paul Maholm, ATL *

Shaun Marcum, MIL

Jason Marquis, SD

Daisuke Matsuzaka, BOS

Brandon McCarthy, OAK

Kevin Millwood, SEA

Roy Oswalt, TEX

Carl Pavano, MIN

Jake Peavy, CWS *

Anibal Sanchez, DET

Jonathan Sanchez, COL

Ervin Santana, LAA *

Joe Saunders, BAL

James Shields, TB *

Carlos Villanueva, TOR

Chien-Ming Wang, WAS

Kip Wells, SD

Randy Wolf, BAL

Chris Young, NYM

Carlos Zambrano, MIA

RP

David Aardsma, NYY

Jeremy Accardo, OAK

Mike Adams, TEX

Jeremy Affeldt, SF

Luis Ayala, BAL

Grant Balfour, OAK *

Miguel Batista, ATL

Matt Belisle, COL

Rafael Betancourt, COL *

Jonathan Broxton, CIN

Taylor Buchholz, NYM

Sean Burnett, WAS *

Tim Byrdak, NYM

Shawn Camp, CHC

Matt Capps, MIN *

D.J. Carrasco, ATL

Randy Choate, LAD

Todd Coffey, LAD *

Jose Contreras, PHI *

Francisco Cordero, HOU

Juan Cruz, PIT

Octavio Dotel, DET

Chad Durbin, ATL

Kyle Farnsworth, TB

Pedro Feliciano, NYY *

Jason Frasor, TOR

Brian Fuentes, STL *

Mike Gonzalez, WAS

Sean Green, TEX

Kevin Gregg, BAL *

Jason Grilli, PIT

LaTroy Hawkins, LAA

Clay Hensley, SF

Livan Hernandez, MIL

J.P. Howell, TB

Hong-Chih Kuo, CHC

Bobby Jenks, BOS

Brandon League, LAD

Brad Lidge, WAS

Matt Lindstrom, ARI *

Mark Lowe, TEX

Brandon Lyon, TOR

Ryan Madson, CIN

Guillermo Mota, SF

Peter Moylan, ATL

Brett Myers, CWS *

Pat Neshek, OAK

Will Ohman, CIN

Darren Oliver, TOR *

Juan Oviedo (Leo Nunez), MIA

Vicente Padilla, BOS

Brad Penny, SF

Joel Peralta, TB

J.J. Putz, ARI *

Chad Qualls, PIT

Ramon Ramirez, NYM

Jon Rauch, NYM

Francisco Rodriguez, MIL

Mariano Rivera, NYY

Fernando Rodney, TB

J.C. Romero, BAL

Takashi Saito, ARI

Joakim Soria, KC *

Rafael Soriano, NYY *

Hisanori Takahashi, PIT

Robinson Tejeda, CLE

Jose Valverde, DET

Jamey Wright, LAD

C

Rod Barajas, PIT *

Henry Blanco, ARI *

Koyie Hill, TEX

Gerald Laird, DET

Russell Martin, NYY

Brian McCann, ATL *

Jose Molina, TB *

Mike Napoli, TEX

Wil Nieves, ARI

Miguel Olivo, SEA *

Ronny Paulino, BAL

A.J. Pierzynski, CWS

Humberto Quintero, MIL

David Ross, ATL

Carlos Ruiz, PHI *

Brian Schneider, PHI

Kelly Shoppach, NYM

Chris Snyder, HOU *

Yorvit Torrealba, MIL

Matt Treanor, MIL *

2B

Jeff Baker, ATL

Robinson Cano, NYY *

Mike Fontenot PHI

Orlando Hudson CWS *

Maicer Izturis, LAA

Kelly Johnson TOR

Adam Kennedy, LAD

Jeff Keppinger, TB

Jose Lopez, CWS

Freddy Sanchez, SF

Ryan Theriot, SF

SS

Jason Bartlett, SD

Yuniesky Betancourt, KC

Ronny Cedeno, NYM

Stephen Drew, OAK *

Alex Gonzalez, MIL *

Cesar Izturis, WAS

Jhonny Peralta, DET *

Luis Rodriguez, SEA

Marco Scutaro, SF

OF

Bobby Abreu, LAD

Alfredo Amezaga, CHC

Rick Ankiel, WAS

Michael Bourn, ATL

Marlon Byrd, BOS

Melky Cabrera, SF

Johnny Damon, CLE

Matt Diaz, ATL

Kosuke Fukudome, NYY

Jonny Gomes, OAK

Curtis Granderson, NYY *

Scott Hairston, NYM

Josh Hamilton, TEX

Torii Hunter, LAA

Raul Ibanez, NYY

Reed Johnson, ATL

Andruw Jones, NYY

Ryan Ludwick, CIN *

Hideki Matsui, TB

Xavier Nady, SF

Angel Pagan, SF

Juan Pierre, PHI

Juan Rivera, LAD *

Cody Ross, BOS

Luke Scott, TB *

Grady Sizemore, CLE

Ryan Spilborghs, TEX

Ichiro Suzuki, NYY

Nick Swisher, NYY

B.J. Upton, TB

Shane Victorino, LAD

Reggie Willits, LAA

Delmon Young, DET

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I'd be very surprised if we got Sanchez. If he wasn't already on the team, would people feel signing a free agent starter to pretty big money to be our most pressing need? And if he weren't already on the team, would Sanchez choose to sign with the Tigers over the 15 other teams that will be interested in him?

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I really like the idea of trading for Josh Rutledge from Colorado. He is blocked by Tulowitzki (sp?) and maybe Colorado would want to market him. I don't know what they'd want or need (everything?), or whether the Tigers have the goods to bring him back short of trading Castellanos, which would be a bad idea. But if the Tigers are going to continue to play Cabrera at 3B, they need a rangy SS.

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I'd rather the Tigers go after Soria than Soriano. Soria is coming off of an injury but he was better than Soriano when healthy, he's four years younger, and most importantly I think the injury will make him a cheaper option. I'm not certain that the Tigers aren't well positioned with in-house options to replace Valverde, nor do I believe much in throwing money at closers, but if the Tigers are going to do it I'd rather do it for Soria. Soriano is going to want a multi-year deal of the variety that will lead to us watching the Valverde movie all over again by the end of it undoubtedly.

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Maybe someone to replace Santiago but that's about it.

Santiago is coming off a poor season, but he's under contract for 2013 at $2.1 million. Unlikely that they eat that in my opinion. But the bright side is that with Infante also under contract for 2013, it likely means that Santiago's role is greatly diminished next season.

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I really like the idea of trading for Josh Rutledge from Colorado. He is blocked by Tulowitzki (sp?) and maybe Colorado would want to market him.

Tulo is oft-injured, so I doubt they are looking to trade their SS depth.

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I guess bottom line is I'm tired of the drama with Leyland. His inability to cut bait on bad players, his refusal to pay attention to OBP at the two and 5 spots in his line-ups, going down with the ship with Valverde instead of recognizing and preparing for his ultimate implosion before it became a crisis in the playoffs, constantly trying to stretch more outs from clearly spent or ineffective pitchers than they have in them, the over-commitment to platoon match ups when the player removed is still better overall even against opposite hand pitchers. The overall balance has tipped for me.

Very concise and accurate post. +1. The Tigers "success" has been in spite of the above stated weaknesses.

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I really like the idea of trading for Josh Rutledge from Colorado. He is blocked by Tulowitzki (sp?) and maybe Colorado would want to market him. I don't know what they'd want or need (everything?), or whether the Tigers have the goods to bring him back short of trading Castellanos, which would be a bad idea. But if the Tigers are going to continue to play Cabrera at 3B, they need a rangy SS.

When organizations ranked their top 20 prospects earlier this year he was not on the list e is not highly touted

Also, anyone wanna discuss a Torri Hunter deal with incentives?

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I think the off season evolves around re-signing Sanchez. Probably everything else will be dictated by what happens with him. We need 1-2 bullpen parts, but I don't expect us to break the bank on that. We need some corner OF coverage, I think we might see another platoon type RHB signed for that role. We can accumulate the right parts to platoon both corner OF spots, if Leyland desires that.

I think you need 6 SP's in today's game, so I believe we (try to) re-sign Sanchez, and keep Porcello/Smyly. Smyly can start at Toledo, or pitch out of the pen to begin with. If you were to trade Porcello, there is minimal SP depth at AA/AAA in case of an injury. You are talking Wilk, Crosby or Below -- with nothing legitmate behind that.

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As for manager, I love Leyland.

Managers don't have anything to do with wins or losses, maybe three in a season at most for some teams.

But look at Terry Francona. He was not fired because the Red Sox choked, he was fired because he couldn't keep his team under control. Leyland is excellent at that and there are never any big clubhouse problems. Cabrera has a very embarrassing arrest, the team is there for him. Delmon is racist when drunk? No one hates in him. No one throws anyone under the bus, they win and lose as a team, when one fails the others just try to pick him up.

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I think the off season evolves around re-signing Sanchez. Probably everything else will be dictated by what happens with him. We need 1-2 bullpen parts, but I don't expect us to break the bank on that. We need some corner OF coverage, I think we might see another platoon type RHB signed for that role. We can accumulate the right parts to platoon both corner OF spots, if Leyland desires that.

I think you need 6 SP's in today's game, so I believe we (try to) re-sign Sanchez, and keep Porcello/Smyly. Smyly can start at Toledo, or pitch out of the pen to begin with. If you were to trade Porcello, there is minimal SP depth at AA/AAA in case of an injury. You are talking Wilk, Crosby or Below -- with nothing legitmate behind that.

When you have the top 4 that you have I don't care if one of them has to be #5

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When you have the top 4 that you have I don't care if one of them has to be #5

I do. One of the biggest competitive advantages a team can gain (and at a reasonable cost) is on the discrepancy between #5 SP's league-wide. It's really quite important.

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Someone on mlbtraderumors just said he'd be "happy if none of those return" and the list consisted of Valverde, Leyland and Sanchez.

..lol

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Is that really Leyland's issue? He has to play the players he's given by DD. Yes, guys have sucked or struggled for us, but what else can Leyland do?
Yes I believe it is a Leyland issue. I believe DD brings in or keeps players that Leyland wants not the other way around. Leyland is already talking about how good a season Peralta had. If Leyland is back, so is Peralta.

Overall the pitching is in good shape with or without Sanchez. Signing Sanchez gives them the flexibility to make a trade using Porcello or Sherzer. With Valverde gone, Benoit becomes the weak link. They need to improve SS, C and one OF with someone not named Swisher. Did anyone see how bad Swisher is in the OF? The bench also needs a big improvement. Part of the could come from having guys like Avila, Berry or Dirks there if they are not part of a trade package. I don't think Garcia is quite ready for the bigs just yet but he's not far from it.

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anyone think Porcello could close? Give the kid a chance to throw hard again (assuming he still can) and if the trade market isn't good on him, he could be Derek Lowe type productive as a closer. Lowe's first coupld of years out of the pen were pretty impressive and he was throwing 100+ innings a year.

Re-Sign Sanchez and turn Porcello loose in the pen where he's not worried about pitch count and thinking past the first time through the lineup where his OPS in a players 1st at bat in his career is .651 vs .769 overall

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I wouldn't mind looking at a SS, whether Rutledge, one of the guys out of Cincinatti, Yunel Escobar, JJ Hardy or someone else. However, I am not near as against bringing Peralta back as some. I think his D is underrated and his O is pretty solid for the most part. He finsihed under a 700 OPS, but his 400 something September really sunk the average and paints an inaccurate pitcher. Something was clearly off with him and he seemed to have righted it by the playoffs. He was a mid 700s guy from May through August.

People overrate what Porcello is going to bring back and I don't think signing Sanchez is realistic. The one caveat to that is, Illitch may just keep firing money at the problem until we get one. We got so close and he wants one soon.

I'm excited about Garcia and Castellanos, but they aren't quite ready and you don't bring them up to use as platoon guys.

We need an OF or 2 who can get on base and play D. However, we just as badly need guys who can hit lefties. That is the one area dumping Delmon(and I am not saying we shouldn't, we definitely have to) hurts us in. Hopefully we sign a guy like Shoppach and I'm still in favor of looking at Soriano for LF. Other than that, get a lefty batting practice pitcher I guess!

I wouldn't add anything to the bullpen. Hopefully Coke can be something between his regular seaosn performance and his postseason performance. I like Downs as a second lefty and we have good depth with Villareal,Dotel(easy pick up on the option),Benoit(I still believe in him, the stuff is there),AA,Marte and Rondon. I don't even hate Putkonen like others do. I think he has potential.

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