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Ndamukong Suh

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Considering both his on-field and off-field actions, I don't see where any of my comments are out of line or warrant being called "whiny," because I feel like I have a pretty strong case behind what I say.

I'd love to hear this strong case. Honestly.

For the record, I don't find you whiny, but I often find your claims to be overstated by an amount that only serves to lose you credibility with me, at least.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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If you can't see how frequently getting in trouble with the law is a bad precursor for things to come in the future, then I don't know what to tell you. I don't care if it's for not wearing a seat belt or being five over on the speed limit, if it keeps happening once a month, there's a major problem there. I mean, I don't even have the money to hire a driver and I also am not in the public spotlight, but I still have managed to not been pulled over for anything in about eight years now. Someone give me millions of dollars.

This just gets a LOL, and then we move on.

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Suh has not been flagged for a personal foul this year and yet he keeps getting killed by the national media as the 'dirtiest player in the game'. It is ludicrous. Ray Lewis was involved with manslaughter and he takes more cheap shots than Suh, but he is lauded as some bastion of excellence....even more preposterous.

The dude likes to drive fast. So what? He can get as many tickets as he wants. He can afford it. As long as he is not hurting anyone (on the road) I do not give a crap if the dude wants to keep getting speeding tickets.

The hypocrisy of the fan base is amazing to me. Suh could be getting personal foul calls all over the place and if he had 9 sacks to go with it and we were 9-1 he would be lauded as the 'heart and soul' of the team. We are losing so everyone is losing their minds trying to figure out why....and they are pointing at Suh as the problem and want him traded? (What I have been hearing a lot of on the radio) More lunacy IMO.

He may have his sights on bigger things than Detroit. He seems like the type who WANTS all this national attention and he may want a bigger market to exploit.

He is a productive player and I want my team FILLED with productive players.

Edited by John_Brian_K
Apparently my misspellings were angering some people

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I don't get you guys...for a sports town that had Bill Laimbeer I don't understand why you don't get your situation. You have a player that YOU love, that the rest of the league hates and considers dirty. Nothing they say will change how you feel about Suh(or Laimbeer) and vice versa. It's fun having guys like that on your team. Yes, Suh is a dirty player who goes above and beyond to get an advantage and sometimes goes too far, just like Bill L was. Just accept it and say who cares when questioned about it. Sheesh.

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I'd love to hear this strong case. Honestly.

For the record, I don't find you whiny, but I often find your claims to be overstated by an amount that only serves to lose you credibility with me, at least.

You honestly think that nothing more will ever happen with Suh besides getting some traffic citations? If he keeps getting them and refuses to clean up his off-field actions, that is a severe red flag to me. Pro athletes are like children. If you don't squash the negative things as soon as possible, they're going to keep happening. My opinion on Suh is that his off-field actions and continuing to have run-ins with the law, no matter how minor, are most likely not going to stop considering he's already had what, three or four citations in less than a year? Five? So what will it take for any of you to admit he has a problem? When he is suspended games for conduct detrimental to the team/league? When he puts someone in the hospital, or worse, with his actions of speeding on a fairly regular basis? I realize many people will excuse things off the field in exchange for on-field production...but excuse me for not wanting a Pacman Jones on the Lions. I just think people here seem to underestimate what off-field things do to the on-field product. I realize Suh hasn't been called for many penalties lately. However, his tendency to play right on that edge (for instance his sack on Cutler everyone was calling for to be a penalty or fine) when he doesn't need to is going to hurt this team at inopportune times, and it has before. He takes unnecessary risks that are too close for a team of the Lions' status to go through. The Lions aren't the Patriots or Packers, they're not going to be on the right side of the call most of the time. Those borderline calls are going to come back and bite them. I feel there's a pretty decent connection between off-field incidents and on-field play in a sport like football where judgmental calls are made on every single play. And I believe Suh's off-field actions mirror his on-field actions pretty well. I just don't want to hear any complaining in the future when Suh's tactics cost the Lions a playoff game or his off-field tactics cost him to miss games on the field.

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I just don't want to hear any complaining in the future when Suh's tactics cost the Lions a playoff game or his off-field tactics cost him to miss games on the field.

I'm sure you'll be right there leading the charge.

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Comparing Suh to Pacman Jones is one of the most ludicrous things I've seen in 8 years on this board. As soon as Suh shows a propensity for beating up women and thugging it up at multiple strip clubs, then we can start using the two in the same discussion.

And who claimed the hit on Cutler should've been a fine? Opposing fans and the media. The NFL called it a clean hit. Hell even Cutler, Lovie, and the Bears called it a good football play.

I wish he'd dial it back a bit too at times, but using speeding tickets and a completely unfounded road rage incident as a basis to say he's going to become some out of control monster...that doesn't wash with me.

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Jesus... If he gets in trouble then get all dramatic about it then. Right now I love that he's a lion!

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I don't get you guys...for a sports town that had Bill Laimbeer I don't understand why you don't get your situation. You have a player that YOU love, that the rest of the league hates and considers dirty. Nothing they say will change how you feel about Suh(or Laimbeer) and vice versa. It's fun having guys like that on your team. Yes, Suh is a dirty player who goes above and beyond to get an advantage and sometimes goes too far, just like Bill L was. Just accept it and say who cares when questioned about it. Sheesh.

Yes, I LOVED having Bill Laimbeer on the Pistons. And it was good to have guys like Dino Ciccarelli and Kirk Maltby and Martin Lapointe on the Wings. And I HATE playing against that turd AJ Pryzynski (or however the hell you spell it), but I wouldn't complain if he was a Tiger.

But the thing about those guys was that they were instigators. They knew how to push right up to the line and get inside of the heads of opposing players. It was part of their game.

I'm not sure it's quite the same with Suh. I don't get the impression that he does these things with the intention of goading players into taking a retaliatory shot at him. I think he's just a touch mean (NOT dirty) and has a very short fuse.

I think of a dirty player as someone who goes after knees or heads, or who hits people with the intent to injure them. James Harrison. Richie Incognito. They're dirty.

Suh is not used to getting beat, and he doesn't like getting beat, and sometimes if he does he lashes out - a stomp here, a kick there. Apparently he also doesn't like waiting in traffic.

Finally, as a coincidence, ESPN is just now showing footage of Broderick Bunkeley blatantly kicking a 49er in the head - as part of a three minute segment about Suh. Bunkeley's kick is ten times worse than Suh's leg extension, but I've probably seen the Suh clip 20 times and this is the first I've seen the Bunkeley kick. Suh has a point that the press makes too much of him... but he has done it to himself.

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You honestly think that nothing more will ever happen with Suh besides getting some traffic citations? If he keeps getting them and refuses to clean up his off-field actions, that is a severe red flag to me. Pro athletes are like children. If you don't squash the negative things as soon as possible, they're going to keep happening. My opinion on Suh is that his off-field actions and continuing to have run-ins with the law, no matter how minor, are most likely not going to stop considering he's already had what, three or four citations in less than a year? Five? So what will it take for any of you to admit he has a problem? When he is suspended games for conduct detrimental to the team/league? When he puts someone in the hospital, or worse, with his actions of speeding on a fairly regular basis? I realize many people will excuse things off the field in exchange for on-field production...but excuse me for not wanting a Pacman Jones on the Lions. I just think people here seem to underestimate what off-field things do to the on-field product. I realize Suh hasn't been called for many penalties lately. However, his tendency to play right on that edge (for instance his sack on Cutler everyone was calling for to be a penalty or fine) when he doesn't need to is going to hurt this team at inopportune times, and it has before. He takes unnecessary risks that are too close for a team of the Lions' status to go through. The Lions aren't the Patriots or Packers, they're not going to be on the right side of the call most of the time. Those borderline calls are going to come back and bite them. I feel there's a pretty decent connection between off-field incidents and on-field play in a sport like football where judgmental calls are made on every single play. And I believe Suh's off-field actions mirror his on-field actions pretty well. I just don't want to hear any complaining in the future when Suh's tactics cost the Lions a playoff game or his off-field tactics cost him to miss games on the field.

I've haven't made a claim - good, bad or indifferent - about the probability that Suh will do something bad in the future. That is just you placing words in my mouth. I simply asked you to make the strong case that you claimed you could.

I don't think writing a massive text wall, jumping to conclusions, engaging in hyperbole or making flat out inaccurate statements like 'pro athletes are like children' constitute a strong case. They rather constitue an inability to make a strong case.

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I've haven't made a claim - good, bad or indifferent - about the probability that Suh will do something bad in the future. That is just you placing words in my mouth. I simply asked you to make the strong case that you claimed you could.

I don't think writing a massive text wall, jumping to conclusions, engaging in hyperbole or making flat out inaccurate statements like 'pro athletes are like children' constitute a strong case. They rather constitue an inability to make a strong case.

I'm sorry you feel that a decent-sized paragraph is a massive wall of text. I'm also sorry that you seem to live in a world full of unicorns, rainbows and cinnamon buns where nobody's miscues are cause for concern, particularly multiple. I'm also sorry that you don't understand the amount of pampering that professional athletes want, need and require to stay out of trouble. Yes, there's many professional athletes that, no matter the money or fame or position of power, conduct themselves as good-natured citizens both on and off the field of play. However, there are many, and Suh has proven over the last couple years that he is one of them, who throw caution to the wind, are selfish in their actions and rely on their money and fame to mask their miscues both on and off the field. Sorry, but Suh doesn't strike me as a person who is concerned with cleaning up his actions, again both on and off the field, to make him less of a target for both public safety and NFL officials, the latter of which affects not only him, but his team as a whole.

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You honestly think that nothing more will ever happen with Suh besides getting some traffic citations? If he keeps getting them and refuses to clean up his off-field actions, that is a severe red flag to me.

I don't see traffic infraction as a gateway to more serious trouble. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I don't think people typically see speeding or even reckless driving being something that leads to more serious off-field issues.

Pro athletes are like children. If you don't squash the negative things as soon as possible, they're going to keep happening.

Meh... to some extent yeah, but that's overtly simplistic...even if you're discussion real children. "Squahing" something is never that easy.

My opinion on Suh is that his off-field actions and continuing to have run-ins with the law, no matter how minor, are most likely not going to stop considering he's already had what, three or four citations in less than a year? Five? So what will it take for any of you to admit he has a problem?

I don't think anyone is denying he has issues with safely driving. The question is whether this is an indicate that he's headed for worse things or not. I don't think it is.

When he is suspended games for conduct detrimental to the team/league? When he puts someone in the hospital, or worse, with his actions of speeding on a fairly regular basis? I realize many people will excuse things off the field in exchange for on-field production...but excuse me for not wanting a Pacman Jones on the Lions.

I think he's a long way from being Pacman Jones.

I just think people here seem to underestimate what off-field things do to the on-field product. I realize Suh hasn't been called for many penalties lately. However, his tendency to play right on that edge (for instance his sack on Cutler everyone was calling for to be a penalty or fine)

Who is everyone? The NFL called it a clean hit. I thought I read somewhere than even Culter and Lovie Smith said it was a clean hit.

when he doesn't need to is going to hurt this team at inopportune times, and it has before. He takes unnecessary risks that are too close for a team of the Lions' status to go through. The Lions aren't the Patriots or Packers, they're not going to be on the right side of the call most of the time. Those borderline calls are going to come back and bite them.

What are these 'borderline' calls? This year the only one I can think of is this incident, and again, no suspension or penalty from the NFL.

I feel there's a pretty decent connection between off-field incidents and on-field play in a sport like football where judgmental calls are made on every single play. And I believe Suh's off-field actions mirror his on-field actions pretty well. I just don't want to hear any complaining in the future when Suh's tactics cost the Lions a playoff game or his off-field tactics cost him to miss games on the field.

I don't disagree that bad decisions off the field can be an indicator that a player may make bad decisions on the field. I just disagree about the severity of the bad decisions. These are traffic infractions... and even the latest now the police are questioning if it really was worth of a ticket.

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OK I have to call you out on this nonsense.

and Suh has proven over the last couple years that he is one of them, who throw caution to the wind, are selfish in their actions and rely on their money and fame to mask their miscues both on and off the field.

Give specific examples of him of him using money and fame to mask his miscues on and off the field.

Sorry, but Suh doesn't strike me as a person who is concerned with cleaning up his actions, again both on and off the field, to make him less of a target for both public safety and NFL officials, the latter of which affects not only him, but his team as a whole.

Since last thanksgiving he's had a mere 3 offsides penalties. 0 suspensions. 0 personal fouls. 16 games plus one playoff game. You don't see improvement because you simply don't want to. That's on you, not him.

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I'm sorry you feel that a decent-sized paragraph is a massive wall of text.

No, I feel a bunch of relatively unorganized, unsupported claims does not an argument make plus it makes for less enjoyable reading.

I'm also sorry that you seem to live in a world full of unicorns, rainbows and cinnamon buns where nobody's miscues are cause for concern, particularly multiple.

I don't know where you get the idea that I don't think miscues are a cause for concern, I simply asked you to make the strong argument WRT Suh that you claimed you could make. You haven't as of yet, as far as I can tell, independent of whether I think the miscues are a cause for concern.

I think they are a cause of concern, FWIW, I just think you overstate it massively, greatly undermining your argument.

I'm also sorry that you don't understand the amount of pampering that professional athletes want, need and require to stay out of trouble. Yes, there's many professional athletes that, no matter the money or fame or position of power, conduct themselves as good-natured citizens both on and off the field of play.

Please inform me how athletes as a group require pampering to stay out of trouble.

Based on my casual observation, I would go so far as to say the overwhelming majority of professional athletes act as good natured citizens. The childlike athlete seems to me to be the exception, not the rule.

However, there are many, and Suh has proven over the last couple years that he is one of them, who throw caution to the wind, are selfish in their actions and rely on their money and fame to mask their miscues both on and off the field.

He throws caution to the wind because he is a ****** driver and has been flagged for something like 5 personal fouls in 3 years?

I don't think Suh is a role model by any stretch, but your statement assumes an awfuul lot and paints with a pretty broad brush.

Also, how has he relied on money and fame to mask his miscues? If anything, his money and fame bring his miscues to light. I mean, I don't doubt there is someone in Farmington Hills who has an even worse driving record than Suh, yet I don't know about it or him/her. I guess they must have more fame and money than Suh.

Sorry, but Suh doesn't strike me as a person who is concerned with cleaning up his actions, again both on and off the field, to make him less of a target for both public safety and NFL officials, the latter of which affects not only him, but his team as a whole.

How have his actions negatively impacted the team this season?

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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I don't see traffic infraction as a gateway to more serious trouble. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I don't think people typically see speeding or even reckless driving being something that leads to more serious off-field issues.

You are absolutely correct.

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I'm sorry you feel that a decent-sized paragraph is a massive wall of text. I'm also sorry that you seem to live in a world full of unicorns, rainbows and cinnamon buns where nobody's miscues are cause for concern, particularly multiple. I'm also sorry that you don't understand the amount of pampering that professional athletes want, need and require to stay out of trouble. Yes, there's many professional athletes that, no matter the money or fame or position of power, conduct themselves as good-natured citizens both on and off the field of play. However, there are many, and Suh has proven over the last couple years that he is one of them, who throw caution to the wind, are selfish in their actions and rely on their money and fame to mask their miscues both on and off the field. Sorry, but Suh doesn't strike me as a person who is concerned with cleaning up his actions, again both on and off the field, to make him less of a target for both public safety and NFL officials, the latter of which affects not only him, but his team as a whole.

If you don't like professional athletes, why do you watch professional sports?

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OK I have to call you out on this nonsense.

Give specific examples of him of him using money and fame to mask his miscues on and off the field.

Since last thanksgiving he's had a mere 3 offsides penalties. 0 suspensions. 0 personal fouls. 16 games plus one playoff game. You don't see improvement because you simply don't want to. That's on you, not him.

Don't you think that if were a regular Joe who had to pay his fines on a regular income, he wouldn't clean his act up off the field before it got to the point it has gotten now? To me, this amount of legal trouble in such a short time reads to me that he feels he has the money to pay fines and can stay out of more major law trouble with his name. I'm fairly certain if the Oregon incident happened to some regular average citizen, they would have faced much more severe punishment than Suh got. Every time any professional athlete (and even college athlete) gets in trouble, there is someone from the team/school on the phone nearly immediately making deals and getting them out of it.

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How have his actions negatively impacted the team this season?

I think it's painfully obvious to see on a weekly basis how his actions have impacted the team as a whole since he arrived in terms of penalties. Every time there's a borderline call or those "shoving" matches result in a penalty, it's nearly always the Lions getting called for it. This isn't just by coincidence, it's because the things that started with Suh's questionable decisions on the field in 2010 have negatively affected how officials referee the Lions during games. Granted, this is not just Suh. Corey Williams and Cliff Avril don't help the situation by committing dumb penalties on a weekly basis either. However, it started mostly when Suh got here. Yes, the team has, for the most part, improved since Suh joined the team. But what is frustrating is watching penalties decide a majority of Lions games and I feel like Suh has had the biggest impact on that.

I'm well aware that his called penalties have gone down recently. I am also aware that he plays right on the line of legal and not illegal every week. No matter what, whether it's warranted or not, it seems like every 2 or 3 weeks, there's some kind of questionable play by Suh that gets highlighted by media and therefore scrutinized by the various people that see it, including the NFL and its officials. I am well aware that the sack on Cutler earlier in the season was not a penalty and was called clean by the players/teams involved, but it still got highlighted and was a main point of the media and negatively impacts the way officials treat the team on anything that looks questionable. You don't think that because of the reputation the Lions have earned behind the leadership of Suh, that the officials are looking for almost anything at all that looks questionable and calling it? Since Suh came in the league, the Lions have been 29th (2010 - 63.6 yds/gm), 31st (2011 - 67.0 yds/gm) and 29th (2012 - 65.1 yds/gm) in penalties. In 2009 before Suh arrived? 15th in the league at 48.0 yards a game, and 2008 was even less than that. I don't think that's some kind of coincidence.

I realize this also came with a coaching change and that's a whole other story because I feel Schwartz encourages this kind of behavior on the field, but I don't think it makes for a winning team. Again, I realize the team has improved over the last three seasons if you look at as a group, but you can't tell me the team isn't being negatively impacted in terms of referees calls as a whole because of the attention they get based on Suh's borderline hits. There's no reason for him to pull a QB down by his neck or collar when he could wrap up around the waist just as easily (like on the Cutler hit). There's no reason for him to do his overhand punch down on the QB's arm every time he gets close attempting a sack, but he does it anyway and brings attention to himself and the rest of the team in the officials' eyes. If this were the 90's, I would fully encourage what Suh does and how he plays. But in this day and age, I do not.

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If you don't like professional athletes, why do you watch professional sports?

Because I still like watching the finest-tuned athletes in the world play a game at a high level? Not sure what the point of this is. That doesn't change that many are scumbags with a self-centered attitude.

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I think you're pretending to know him way better than you do. Your keyboard must look like a jump-to-conclusions mat.

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Because I still like watching the finest-tuned athletes in the world play a game at a high level? Not sure what the point of this is. That doesn't change that many are scumbags with a self-centered attitude.

Watch porn. Same thing with better endings.

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Because I still like watching the finest-tuned athletes in the world play a game at a high level? Not sure what the point of this is. That doesn't change that many are scumbags with a self-centered attitude.

I think the point is that if you have such a low opinion of athletes as a group, it seems odd that you would devote as much time as you seem to do following them and sport events. There are other forms of entainment that are performed by highly-tuned individuals.

Also, many more athletes are not scumbags than are.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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