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Keith Law: "Cabrera shouldn't appear in the top three spots on any ballot."

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It couldn't have made more sense. He carried the team, unlike any other player. What else do you need?

Yeah, but he didn't have anything to do with the situation he was in. Lebron could carry a bad team as well, and in fact carried weaker teams further than Rose carried the Bulls. If you swapped the players teams would Lebron suddenly deserve the MVP over Rose even if they had identical seasons? It doesn't make much sense to me. By this logic maybe the Astros best player should win the NL MVP, imagine how horrendous that team would be without...without....well ok imagine if the Astros actually had a best player.

Besides that, in MLB they vote the exact opposite way so I don't see how it's comparable. You can only win the MVP if your team is really good, and unlike the NBA a single player is never responsible for that.

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Its fine to ask, but it shouldn't determine MVP IMO. MVP is about pure value, not value relative to how good your teammates are. A guy is either valuable or he's not. If WAR could be perfected, for example, that is what you would want to use to determine MVP. Who helps their team win the most games, who creates the biggest run differential between their team and opposing teams.

Yes. The commentators who re-interpret 'Most Valuable' to 'had most impact on his team' have come up with that formulation out of left field - and defined that way it is a dumb thing to give an award for anyway.

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I guess if computers were voting then maybe it would be singular. But valuable means different things to people, it is a very subjective term on it's face, which is why it isn't singular in any regard. Voting history shows that.

I wasn't talking about voting history.

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Yeah, but he didn't have anything to do with the situation he was in. Lebron could carry a bad team as well, and in fact carried weaker teams further than Rose carried the Bulls. If you swapped the players teams would Lebron suddenly deserve the MVP over Rose even if they had identical seasons? It doesn't make much sense to me. By this logic maybe the Astros best player should win the NL MVP, imagine how horrendous that team would be without...without....well ok imagine if the Astros actually had a best player.

Besides that, in MLB they vote the exact opposite way so I don't see how it's comparable. You can only win the MVP if your team is really good, and unlike the NBA a single player is never responsible for that.

This

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It couldn't have made more sense. He carried the team, unlike any other player. What else do you need?

Does it make him more valuable because his team wasn't as good? If James, Wade, Bryant, Howard or a handfull of other guys took his spot on the bulls are they suddenly more valuable because they HAVE to carry the team?

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Wasn't there a pitcher for I think the Phillies who had like 1/2 of his teams wins? He's a HOF I believe.

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I couldn't possibly disagree more. How they played when he missed time and has been on the bench is a great indicator. He is quite simply not as good a player as Lebron,Durant,Howard/Wade(that year) and probably a few others and I think its silly to suggest that a guy who played worse was more valuable. That Chicago team was much better than anyone pretended, second superstar or not. They had the league's best defense(not because of Rose by any means), its deepest front line and a very underrated player in Deng at SF. Regardless, to give him MVP basically suggests that they would have been less good with Lebron(and I guess Deng's equal at PG for the sake of argument)on their team instead of Rose. THat is patently false.

So basically Lebron should win MVP every year then right?

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So basically Lebron should win MVP every year then right?

Pretty much. He's the best player of this generation, so it makes sense that he would win almost all the MVPs, especially in his prime.

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So basically Lebron should win MVP every year then right?

Well, how many MVP did Michael Jordan win? And it's not like the Bulls were bereft of talent around him.

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Well, how many MVP did Michael Jordan win? And it's not like the Bulls were bereft of talent around him.

Hey neither is Lebron. He has a contender for the award year in and year out on his team. And Bosh is no slouch either.

I have no idea how many MJ won without looking it up. If you can make a legit argument naming a player MVP I will listen to it. Also if you are one of the top 3 or so...no matter who gets it, they most likely got it right or the difference between who won and who lost are minimal at best and may come down to small things about the help he had on the team ect.

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Wasn't there a pitcher for I think the Phillies who had like 1/2 of his teams wins? He's a HOF I believe.

Steve Carlton had 27 of his team's 59 wins. Steve came 5th in the MVP voting tht year despite having a WAR of 12.1(!).

1972 apparent was a good year for players having great seasons on crappy teams.

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Dave Cameron posted an ESPN insider article today trying to make a case for Cabrera. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post it or not since it's insider but basically he points out how much better Cabrera has been in the clutch than Trout this year and breaks down their batting lines in low, medium and high leverage situations. He says Cabrera has like a .520 wOBA in high leverage situations which easily leads the AL, where as Trout has struggled and for the most part done his damage when the game was already decided. He still says that Trout should be the MVP but says that Cabrera is just as deserving as anybody else and a vote for him wouldn't be crazy. It's a pretty good read if anybody has insider they should check it out.

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If I asked all 32 managers in baseball this question:

"2 outs, bottom of night, against an ace, world series, tie ball game, runner on 2nd."

"Who do you want up, Cabby or Trout"

31 would say Cabby.

M

V

P

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If I asked all 32 managers in baseball this question:

"2 outs, bottom of night, against an ace, world series, tie ball game, runner on 2nd."

"Who do you want up, Cabby or Trout"

31 would say Cabby.

M

V

P

What teams do the 31st and 32nd managers manage?

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my bad...you get the point though

I might pick Cabrera based on a longer track record, but I would like either of those players up in that situation. Trout has the edge because of his fielding and base running.

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I might pick Cabrera based on a longer track record, but I would like either of those players up in that situation. Trout has the edge because of his fielding and base running.

two things that have NOTHING to do with the situation I said..

p.s. have the two of them switch teams and I guarantee you that Cabby has even more ridiculous numbers

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two things that have NOTHING to do with the situation I said..

p.s. have the two of them switch teams and I guarantee you that Cabby has even more ridiculous numbers

They have everything to do with what you said. You said that Cabrera should be the MVP because of your World Series scenario. I said Trout should be the MVP because he does other things.

I don't think Cabrera's numbers (the ones I care about) would be much different on the Angels.

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two things that have NOTHING to do with the situation I said..

p.s. have the two of them switch teams and I guarantee you that Cabby has even more ridiculous numbers

And being the MVP has nothing to do with the situation you said.

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In that situation I'd pick someone like Ramon Santiago, as Rod and Mario always say, in a key spot a pitcher would rather face a great slugger than a scrappy guy who puts the ball in play

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By this logic maybe the Astros best player should win the NL MVP, imagine how horrendous that team would be without...without....well ok imagine if the Astros actually had a best player.

I guess I don't understand this analogy. You are ignoring the fact that Rose had a dominate season, regardless of how the MVP should be voted for. The Astros have awful players. Rose is an elite top 10 talent.

Cabrera is having an elite year, and should be in top 3 consideration.

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Count me as one of the people that think it shouldn't matter what the rest of your team looks like. If it did than Verlander probably shouldn't have won it last year since we won the division by 15 games, so even if we didn't have him we still would've won it. The point is that you shouldn't punish a player because of what his teammates are like, if you put together the best season in the league than you should win it regardless of whether you play with 5 other all stars or no all stars.

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I guess I don't understand this analogy. You are ignoring the fact that Rose had a dominate season, regardless of how the MVP should be voted for. The Astros have awful players. Rose is an elite top 10 talent.

Cabrera is having an elite year, and should be in top 3 consideration.

The point I'm making is that playing on a bad team shouldn't be a criteria to be MVP. If Rose was the best player then yeah vote him MVP, but don't vote him MVP over a superior player just because he had crappier teammates.

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