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Kamakzie

Why does Leyland hate Quintin Berry?

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You must be new. :laugh:

Touche'!

Edited by DET Mr Malefic
Added the quote because someone posted while I was posting, thus destroying the reference.

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Please, dont' try to tout Bleacher Report as a great source for opinion mining. It is citizen journalism--you get great insight there mixed in with some of the worst "published" pieces of garbage ever.

I probably wouldn't physically fight you for calling out my reading comp, but the ACT said I pretty much crushed that part of the test.

Remember how bad the Lions were when Millen was in Detroit? The Saints were on par with that level of awful when Manning was there. Playing QB with no offenisve line never looked like any fun to me.

Namath had some of the best QB skills on the planet until his body betrayed him. He may have gotten into the HOF on his lone championship and media exposure, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a great quarterback before his body was pushed too far. Watch the Joe Namath special on HBO sometime if you really want an appreciation for how hurt that guy played.

Stats do not always transcend era.

Warner was a very good quarterback for six years, it just wasn't six years consecutively.

And thank you for admitting Warner wasn't average, that was all I really wanted. Nobody is putting him up there with the immortals, just give the guy credit for being really good and more than just average.

Six years?!? He only had 5 seasons where he played 15 games or more. He was elite good in 99 and 01, and he was very good in 08 and 09, but he was really average the rest of his career.

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Reading this thread is somewhat painful. It seems in many cases people are advancing arguments for the sake of advancing an argument, going well out of their way to compare apples to screwdrivers and using convoluted and broken analogies.

Other sports are not the same as baseball.

Comparing people who are picked low in the draft to people who were bad professionally for a long time is not the same thing. Pujols was picked in the 13th round, but when he actually began playing professionally he quickly proved to be superhuman and was promoted accordingly, and the vast majority of people did not object.

One player that comes to mind who was bad professionally for a long time and became great was Magglio, but even Magglio came with his own asterisk: He was one of those players --- And every organization has two or three of them at any given time --- That scouts love and insist will be great even though his performance has been consistently horrible. In the recent past the Tigers version of these players have included Cale Iorg and Wilken Ramirez (and for a brief snapshot in time, it appeared they may have been right on Ramirez, but alas.....). At present you might say that Audy Ciriaco is such a player. In any event, Magglio was one of those guys, and the scouts ended up being WAY right on him. However, Quintin Berry is NOT one of those guys.

But anyway, I'm digressing. Pretty much everybody recognizes that Berry came up at a time that the Tigers were in a bad spot, and he performed admirably at a time when we REALLY needed it. Pretty much everybody is pleased with that and happy about it and acknowledges it. People who are saying that he's not a starter now don't "hate" him or have anything against him, it's just recognizing reality, trying to argue that people hate him is like if I said "I don't think Stephen Hawking will win the Boston Marathon next year" and the response being "Well he COULD. You don't KNOW that he couldn't! Why do you hate Stephen Hawking so much?"

Yes, it's theoretically possible that Berry could be a good starter, but be realistic, how good are those chances? And just because the chances are above 0%, does that mean the Tigers organization should feel obligated to explore them? He's been a pro for six years, and been bad for all six. He came up to the Majors, had about a week and a half of good performance, then promptly went back to being bad. And this is why he's on the bench. Not hate. Not favoritism for another player. Just because that's how it goes. It doesn't matter if he's not having fun (if he's not --- Without knowing him, I imagine he probably is having fun because he worked really really hard to get to where he's at and probably feels happy just to be on a major league roster, for however long he gets to be on one) because he's not being paid to have fun, and he's being paid quite well at the moment. As bad as I think Delmon Young is, Young plays over him because he was a top rated prospect before the draft, a dynamite minor leaguer (he hit over .300 at every level and was a 317/362/519 hitter in ~1500 PAs) and has had a decent MLB season in his past while still being on the right side of 30. Ryan Raburn has had multiple good to great minor league seasons, was the Tigers second best hitter on an 86 win team in the recent past, and is at least Berry's equal defensively (in the outfield) if not his superior. Brennan Boesch is among the aforementioned class of players that the scouts love even though he's only really had one full professional season when he's done anything --- Though he's shown flashes of that ability at the major league level for modestly extended periods at times. And this is why those guys are playing ahead of Berry. Not hate, just track record.

No, I, nor anybody else KNOWS for 100% certain that Berry would be a terrible starter. Not even Leyland or Dombrowski know that. However, that's a horrible standard to even attempt to apply in defense of your argument that he should be starting. It can be reasonably deduced that he won't be based on his track record, including his record with the Tigers. It doesn't make me hate him or not appreciate what he did in Jackson's absence to point that out. I'm sure Leyland will pick and choose spots for him to give him the best chance to succeed. That's the role he's probably best suited for right now anyway. With the way injuries have been going and the fact that it's possible that Raburn is done as a Major League player, it's possible he'll get another chance later in the year to start anyway. No need to force the issue with a guy who right now hasn't been such a superlative that he's earned the right to force his way into a starter's role. The fact of the matter is, when he was brought up he was supposed to go right back down in a week. That he's still on the roster is proof enough that he showed something that impressed management because they kept him around. They kept him over Raburn just a little bit ago. Baby steps guys, baby steps. It's not like he came up and blew the doors down like Bryce Harper or something.

Awesome post. No need to go any further.

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So far today Berry is 3 for 3 with 2 stolen bases.

Good job by Leyland picking spots. He used Raburn against the three LH starters and it worked out. The he used Berry, who had been struggling the last couple of weeks, versus the RHP and it worked.

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If you want to make the argument that Berry is not the long term answer based on his minor league stats, then that is fair and I would agree with that. But the debate is who should be playing most days for the Tigers between Berry, Boesch, Raburn, and Young...and Berry wins that battle right now in my mind. It may be different in a month if he goes into an extended slump but the slump he has been in recently is nothing compared to the slump of the three other players mentioned for playing time. If Leyland goes with a strait lefty/righty split, I cannot argue against that either as some of you pointed it, Berry has been solid but not great in his 73 ab's thus far this year. But at the very least, I think Berry should be out there against all right handers.

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If Leyland goes with a strait lefty/righty split, I cannot argue against that either as some of you pointed it, Berry has been solid but not great in his 73 ab's thus far this year. But at the very least, I think Berry should be out there against all right handers.

I think this is a reasonable position, personally.

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I would also keep using Berry against RHP until he shows he can't hit them. If they can capture lightning in a bottle, then great.

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If Leyland goes with a strait lefty/righty split, I cannot argue against that either as some of you pointed it, Berry has been solid but not great in his 73 ab's thus far this year. But at the very least, I think Berry should be out there against all right handers.

I have no issue with a platoon role until he cools off, but I don't think that was the position those supporting Berry have taken in this thread.

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That is the point. Berry is the best option right now. Raburn has no business in the bigs right now.

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In a few years people will be looking back on this year as a historically great year for rookie outfielders, with mega prospects Bryce Harper, Mike Trout, and Quintin Berry.

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That is the point. Berry is the best option right now. Raburn has no business in the bigs right now.

Exactly.

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Six years?!? He only had 5 seasons where he played 15 games or more. He was elite good in 99 and 01, and he was very good in 08 and 09, but he was really average the rest of his career.

Since when do you have to play in 15 or more games in the NFL for it to count?

- 2000 Warner played in 11 games where his team went 8-3--He led the league in SEVEN offensive categories, threw for over 3400 yards (over 300 ypg) and had a passer rating of 98.3. That's an elite year.

-2007 Warner starts 11 of 13 games played, where his team went a 5-6 and ranked 28th against the pass and 9th against the run. When your team is that bad against the pass, you're not going to have a successful season. Warner threw for over 3400 yards, 27 TD and 17 INT, and two of his games came in relief of then-golden boy Matt Leinart. These aren't elite numbers but they are boarderline pro-bowl numbers if you project them out to your magic number of 15 games. How many seasons would Lions fans have killed for a QB to have had stats like this before Stafford?

Warner had six prolific NFL seasons, bottom line.

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If only Ryan Raburn wasn't in the majors, Quintin Berry would be playing every day, including starting against lefties.

Chapman was supposed to be invincible when we faced him, and Berry slapped a nice hit off him.

At least he has the option of laying down a bunt against the very occasional tough lefty starter like Sale or Price.

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That is the point. Berry is the best option right now. Raburn has no business in the bigs right now.

Raburn has had three strait years of very bad first halfs and very good second halfs. The Tigers keep making the same mistake that the next year will be the one where Raburn puts it all together. I would not be at all surprised if this the 4th year in a row where Raburn heats up in the second half. I do believe he has some value to this team. But Tigers cannot make the same mistake again next offseason and count him as an everyday player.

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Chapman was supposed to be invincible when we faced him, and Berry slapped a nice hit off him.

At least he has the option of laying down a bunt against the very occasional tough lefty starter like Sale or Price.

You convinced me - he got a hit off of Chapman and can bunt against lefties.

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When is the last time Raburn went 5 for 5?

when was the last time anyone went 5 for 5? Brennan Boesch last June.

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Berry = Polonco with more speed.

Berry= Rhymes

but, like I said before, there is nothing wrong with catching lightning in a bottle.

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That is the point. Berry is the best option right now.

I've got no problem with that argument. Just don't go comparing him to Pujols, Piazza and NFL quarterbacks. That kind of stuff drives people crazy...which may have been your intention (not sure)

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