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I'll say it again walt:

Despite the Organizational success the past 10 years, The trend over the past few years is cause for concern.

Guys are getting older (see above) and some of the talent waiting in GR are questionable as producers.

Past success in no guarantee for future success.

Trades and acquisitions/additions are necessary to correct the what many perceive as a downward trend.

An excellent opportunity exists to improve the Wings status as a contender with $25 million available.

2 or 3 top six forwards UFAs (combination of D and Fwds) are attainable and desirable given the money available and current roster.

a decent back up goalie is desirable and may be necessary.

a couple of young, talented, strong 3/4 liners additions are desirable and necessary.

In the mix, a decent a couple of specialists, namely in the face-off and PP categories.

Filps might be trade bait if situation warrants.

Health of Cleary and status of Holmstrom come into play.

Bertuzzi is past his prime.

That's what I've stated and that's what I'm sticking to.

Your turn, walt.

EDIT: The question surrounding Franzen's work ethic expressed by many is valid.

Edited by skyguy52

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I'll say it again walt:

Despite the Organizational success the past 10 years, The trend over the past few years is cause for concern.

Guys are getting older (see above) and some of the talent waiting in GR are questionable as producers.

Past success in no guarantee for future success.

Trades and acquisitions/additions are necessary to correct the what many perceive as a downward trend.

An excellent opportunity exists to improve the Wings status as a contender with $25 million available.

2 or 3 top six forwards UFAs (combination of D and Fwds) are attainable and desirable given the money available and current roster.

a decent back up goalie is desirable and may be necessary.

a couple of young, talented, strong 3/4 liners additions are desirable and necessary.

In the mix, a decent a couple of specialists, namely in the face-off and PP categories.

Filps might be trade bait if situation warrants.

Health of Cleary and status of Holmstrom come into play.

Bertuzzi is past his prime.

That's what I've stated and that's what I'm sticking to.

Your turn, walt.

EDIT: The question surrounding Franzen's work ethic expressed by many is valid.

Well done. See, when someone calls you out a little, you can post decent content and make it appear that you are talking out the right end.

You're welcome. :D

Edit: Still don't buy the lazy Franzen argument. There could be many other explanations, and given his track record, I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

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I'll say it again walt:

Despite the Organizational success the past 10 years, The trend over the past few years is cause for concern.

Guys are getting older (see above) and some of the talent waiting in GR are questionable as producers.

Past success in no guarantee for future success.

Trades and acquisitions/additions are necessary to correct the what many perceive as a downward trend.

An excellent opportunity exists to improve the Wings status as a contender with $25 million available.

2 or 3 top six forwards UFAs (combination of D and Fwds) are attainable and desirable given the money available and current roster.

a decent back up goalie is desirable and may be necessary.

a couple of young, talented, strong 3/4 liners additions are desirable and necessary.

In the mix, a decent a couple of specialists, namely in the face-off and PP categories.

Filps might be trade bait if situation warrants.

Health of Cleary and status of Holmstrom come into play.

Bertuzzi is past his prime.

That's what I've stated and that's what I'm sticking to.

Your turn, walt.

EDIT: The question surrounding Franzen's work ethic expressed by many is valid.

You're not going to have 20 players in their prime. Like it or not, Cleary and Bertuzzi are still under contract and neither have any trade value. Hey, maybe LA will give us Dustin Brown if we package them with Ty Conklin? Holmstrom is likely not going to be back as he is not under contract for next season.

So why in the world would anyone give the Red Wings a young, talented physical player for anyone besides Datsyuk or Zetterberg?

The Wings are doing the only thing they can do. They managed the best they could and made cap room in hopes of landing some quality free agents.

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Well done. See, when someone calls you out a little, you can post decent content and make it appear that you are talking out the right end.

You're welcome. :D

Edit: Still don't buy the lazy Franzen argument. There could be many other explanations, and given his track record, I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Glad you think so walt. you now understand me a bit better. may not agree but that's too bad for you.

as for Mule, giving him a benefit of the doubt. but don't think we should have to wonder from game to game which guy we got. His number is rightfully under the microscope for awhile.

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So why in the world would anyone give the Red Wings a young, talented physical player for anyone besides Datsyuk or Zetterberg?

That's a good question. Glad you raised it. The Wings do have skilled players with puck control talent, but they lack in toughness. Size together with speed do matter, something I think they lack at this time and space.

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Yeah, we had lots of toughness when we won all those cups. Obviously its a necessity.

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The League has changed since we won those last couple Cups. Look at the Rangers, Devils, LA. Mix of Physical, puck control, speed, solid defense and near perfect net minding and of course, as always, 4 solid lines. Not the Wings don't have some of those elements, I am concerned about size together with depth. Not so much for the regular season, but during a long hard play-off run. I just think they're lacking and need some pieces. Some of that will take time to expose, but its got to be there.

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Yeah, we had lots of toughness when we won all those cups. Obviously its a necessity.

Exactly. This is what I'm talking about. People want the Wings to shift philosophies, like they have been doing something wrong for 20 years.

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Exactly. This is what I'm talking about. People want the Wings to shift philosophies, like they have been doing something wrong for 20 years.

when we doin that house deal? Philosophy was fine in the second century, still might apply today, but i'd rather be in the real world. Scroll up and read my fix for now. Obviously you don't agree but that doesn't matter. Say you?

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sagnam: some follks just don't accept reality well, want to live in the past, unsure and unwilling to take risk and just hope for the best. you're one of them. Wish you well.

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I think Franzen gets a bad rap. Somehow the idea has become a near-consensus online that he's a floater. I don't see any proof of that. Streaky? Yes. Inconsistent? OK. Rather one-dimensional especially compared to Z or Dats? Sure.

But he made the Wings just before he turned 26, unheralded, scored 12 and 10 goals his first two seasons. So at Christmas of '07 in the '07-'08 season he has just turned 28 and looks like a career 3rd or 4th liner. That's just 4 1/2 years ago.

Then he explodes the rest of '08 and finishes the season with 27 goals and in a once-in-a-lifetime streak scores 13 goals in 16 playoff games as the Wings win the Cup!

Sustains it next year and has a career year as a 29 year old with 34 goals, plus 12 goals in 23 games in the playoffs.

Hurt in '10 limits him to a 1/3 of a season but has another good playoff.

So did he continue to improve that? Probably not. Not unusual for a 30 year old. But he has put together back to back solid seasons near the top of his career productivity levels. 28 and 29 goals are his 3rd and 2nd best goal totals of his career. 55 and 56 points are are the 3rd and 2nd best points totals of his career, just shy of the 59 in '09. Hasn't done much the past 2 playoffs but who on the Wings really has.

So Franzen is playing to his capabilities, IMO. He was never expected to be as talented as Datsyuk or Zetterberg, nor is he. Not his fault that some people overrated him after his insane '08 and '09 playoff performances - not something to hold against him!

Edited by lordstanley

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Streaky? Yes. Inconsistent? OK. Rather one-dimensional especially compared to Z or Dats? Sure.

yes, Stanley agree with all of the above. when do you think we'll see the real Johann? He's not suppose to be compared against Dats or Z is he? bad rap or long contract?

Edited by skyguy52

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yes, Stanley agree with all of the above. when do you think we'll see the real Johann? He's not suppose to be compared against Dats or Z is he? bad rap or long contract?

Well, Rick Nash is making double what Franzen is and has had similar numbers to Johan over the past several seasons and is similar in size, but Nash is the savior, and Franzen is the slacker with a big contract. ?? Sorry, but at $3.9 million per season and Nash at $ 7.5 million, Franzen is a bargain.

What you have continually failed to acknowledge is that with the rare exception of the Devils, teams that get the big, young physical players have been lousy teams for a long time. That's how you build a team, through the crapshoot of the draft, adding a free agent or two and lots of luck. How many teams in the past 10-15 years have won the Cup and have missed the playoffs or haven't come close to another Cup like Anaheim, Carolina, Tampa, Chicago, Dallas, etc. Not to mention the many teams who are projected to be the next big thing like Vancouver, San Jose or Washington who still haven't won anything. Then you have teams like Edmonton and Columbus who have high draft pick after high draft pick and still can't get it together. Perhaps you're very young and just don't get it, but those of us who have been around a while realize how incredibly difficult it is to win just once, let alone as often and as consistently as the Red Wings have. To sustain such excellence for such an extended period is something to behold, not criticize. The Wings have never been a team to follow the latest trend, they're the ones who set the trend. It's incredibly easy to say let's go out and get this and lets do that, but much more difficult to pull off in reality.

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Sometime disparities in salaries as you point out occur when long term contracts are negotiated.

Franzen's cap hit is $4 million /year on a 11 year contract worth $43.5m; Nash's cap hit is $7.8m /year on an 8 year worth $62.4m.

Franzen is 32 yoa, Nash is 28 next month. Franzen didn't have to take it. He probably could have gone elsewhere and ended up with more dough. There must have been a reason why he settled for what he did. In any case, maybe his contract is a bargain maybe not. We've got him for another 8 years. He's a big guy, has skill and when he's on all cylinders he's a menace. He just doesn't always show up. That's why I question his work ethic. Not saying he's lazy, I just have an issue with his work ethic at times.

As for your other comment, I don't know where you get that I'm yelling for size over skill or something along those lines.

Just saying I think it would benefit the Wings to have a couple guys with size AND skill. Doesn't mean they need to stock up on 'em.

EDIT: NO, I'm not young and I'm not naive. I've been around a lot longer than you probably think. Don't appreciate being classified a troll, delusional, comical or that I don't know what I'm talking about either. There's a couple guys on here who THINK they know what their talking about and just don't like hearing someone else's version. Seems the minute someone posts comments on here that go against the grain a little that person becomes a target. There's plenty of room for improvement. I've said my piece.

Edited by skyguy52

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Seems to me that the Red Wing way has been based on a puck control style of offense - which started with the defense.

A great deal of this was possible because of the enormous skill of Lidstrom. We haven't had many big, bruising defensemen, but more guys like Ian White, Brian Rafalski, Larry Murphy who could move the puck quickly and press the offensive action.

Lidstrom was not at 100% this playoffs, and Brad Stuart looked awful to me. White was a downgrade from Rafalski, it seems. On top of all that, we struggled to win face offs; you can't play puck control if you don't have the puck. And without Helm, we had nobody willing to deliver a hit. With all our great precision puck control teams in the past, we always had a McCarty, Lapointe, Maltby, Draper. Old, small, but experienced on defense; with a bit of youth and size in the forwards (esp. 3rd and 4th lines).

The big question, to me, is whether Lidstrom's departure leads to a change in the puck control style. We still have four of our top forwards who are built for that style, but without Lidstrom leading the rush, does it make sense to rebuild for that style of play?

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Seems to me that the Red Wing way has been based on a puck control style of offense - which started with the defense.

A great deal of this was possible because of the enormous skill of Lidstrom. We haven't had many big, bruising defensemen, but more guys like Ian White, Brian Rafalski, Larry Murphy who could move the puck quickly and press the offensive action.

Lidstrom was not at 100% this playoffs, and Brad Stuart looked awful to me. White was a downgrade from Rafalski, it seems. On top of all that, we struggled to win face offs; you can't play puck control if you don't have the puck. And without Helm, we had nobody willing to deliver a hit. With all our great precision puck control teams in the past, we always had a McCarty, Lapointe, Maltby, Draper. Old, small, but experienced on defense; with a bit of youth and size in the forwards (esp. 3rd and 4th lines).

The big question, to me, is whether Lidstrom's departure leads to a change in the puck control style. We still have four of our top forwards who are built for that style, but without Lidstrom leading the rush, does it make sense to rebuild for that style of play?

Good points. Agreed. You don't want to go against the grain here too much though. According to a few of the guys "that have been around" -- the front office crowd -- there are no concerns, the "system" has worked in the past ust fine, now worries. I'm surpised a few of them haven't jumped all over you yet saying you're delusional.:shocked:

Edited by skyguy52

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When you present mature, intelligent logical statements, others will respond in kind and vice versa.

I don't think there was an orginizational mantra to get small, unphysical players. I don't think Holland said, hmmm, lets go for the guy who's 5'10", 180 instead of the guy who's 6'4", 220. Brian Rafalski left the Wings unexpectedly and they signed the best player they could under the circumstances with the resorces the had.

Lidstrom is likely the best defenseman ever. You will not replace him. But there aren't any big bruising defenseman out there right now. Ryan Suter, should they sign him, isn't that guy. So what sort of philosophy are they supposed to switch to? Totally agree that they need to do better on the faceoffs and that it had a big impact on the team's success.

Yes, we'd all love to add a top 6 forward, a top 2 defenseman, a big tough 4th liner who can win faceoffs. But please, skyguy, again, explain how the Wings will acquire one or any of those pieces with the roster and minor leaguers that they have? Realistically, what is Valtteri Filppula going to get you? Do you honestly think anyone is going to part with a guy under 25 who is big, tough, fast and can score? If you'd like to provide some realistic ways with which any of these things can happen...name some names and make it all work within the confines of the salary cap.

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If you'd like to provide some realistic ways with which any of these things can happen...name some names and make it all work within the confines of the salary cap.

The one answer I can think of is salary dump. The Wings have cap space where others don't. Maybe there's someone who could be traded here for little back as long as the Wings pay his salary. The problem is that salary dumps usually involve overpaid players, not merely highly paid players.

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I think what angers some fans in respect to Franzen is that they know what he is capable of doing yet you hardly see it.

I would try to bring in someone to play next to Datsyuk (Parise or Semin), move Franzen to Zetterberg's wing, and possibly entertain moving Filpula back to the 3rd line to play center. It would be a good way to get balance back into the line-up. Helm would center the 4th line.

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The one answer I can think of is salary dump. The Wings have cap space where others don't. Maybe there's someone who could be traded here for little back as long as the Wings pay his salary. The problem is that salary dumps usually involve overpaid players, not merely highly paid players.

Good thought...anyone out there you can think of that is high on the salary cap who might do that? I'm not up on all that...I think the only other thing that could help the Wings long term if the new CBA opens up free agency a bit. It's difficult for a guy under 30 to be an UFA.

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I think what angers some fans in respect to Franzen is that they know what he is capable of doing yet you hardly see it.

I would try to bring in someone to play next to Datsyuk (Parise or Semin), move Franzen to Zetterberg's wing, and possibly entertain moving Filpula back to the 3rd line to play center. It would be a good way to get balance back into the line-up. Helm would center the 4th line.

I think Bertuzzi would be a great 4th liner. It's not that he's a horrible player, just not a top 6 forward at this stage of his career.

I like the thought of Flip going back to the 3rd line. Or maybe singing Olli Jokinen to center a third line with him on the Wing?

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When you present mature, intelligent logical statements, others will respond in kind and vice versa.

I don't think there was an orginizational mantra to get small, unphysical players. I don't think Holland said, hmmm, lets go for the guy who's 5'10", 180 instead of the guy who's 6'4", 220. Brian Rafalski left the Wings unexpectedly and they signed the best player they could under the circumstances with the resorces the had.

Lidstrom is likely the best defenseman ever. You will not replace him. But there aren't any big bruising defenseman out there right now. Ryan Suter, should they sign him, isn't that guy. So what sort of philosophy are they supposed to switch to? Totally agree that they need to do better on the faceoffs and that it had a big impact on the team's success.

Yes, we'd all love to add a top 6 forward, a top 2 defenseman, a big tough 4th liner who can win faceoffs. But please, skyguy, again, explain how the Wings will acquire one or any of those pieces with the roster and minor leaguers that they have? Realistically, what is Valtteri Filppula going to get you? Do you honestly think anyone is going to part with a guy under 25 who is big, tough, fast and can score? If you'd like to provide some realistic ways with which any of these things can happen...name some names and make it all work within the confines of the salary cap.

Seems to me what you claim is not an option for Holland -- putting together rosters with young, tough, skilled personnel v small finesse guys -- is happening very nicely with some organizations AND within the confines of the salary cap. Don't say they're not out there because they are. Holland just may have to take some risk, spend some money, make a trade, juggle things around a bit. Won't happen over night or with the stroke of a magic wand. And yes there will be competition for these kind of people. That's a given. If Holland can't find 4 or 5 people out there that will improve the Wings in 2013 and beyond even with some of constraints you say are making it impossible for him moving in that direction THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG.

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Seems to me what you claim is not an option for Holland -- putting together rosters with young, tough, skilled personnel v small finesse guys -- is happening very nicely with some organizations AND within the confines of the salary cap. Don't say they're not out there because they are. Holland just may have to take some risk, spend some money, make a trade, juggle things around a bit. Won't happen over night or with the stroke of a magic wand. And yes there will be competition for these kind of people. That's a given. If Holland can't find 4 or 5 people out there that will improve the Wings in 2013 and beyond even with some of constraints you say are making it impossible for him moving in that direction THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG.

What organizations are these happening in?...give some names...then look up how those players were acquired...then look up how many Cups the team has won in the past 20 years...then look up how many times the team has missed the playoffs in the past twenty years....

One more time...name some names...give some examples of realistic trades that the Wings can make...Outside of Parise and Suter, name some free agents out there who are under 30 that will improve our team...What assets do the Wings have that any other team would covet and want to part with a young, fast physical player for? Who currently in the minors is considered a can't miss prospect that would give us a top 6 forward or a top 2 defenseman?...

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You put some highly selective provisos on your demands I produce names of organizations that have had success in the Cap era and potentials for trades or acquisitions.

But the LA Kings certainly come to mind off the top of my head. They made a number of trades and acquired a number of quality players thru free agency over the past 3 years.

This info appeared on a different thread, posted by Hongbit.

Free Agent Signings:

Willie Mitchell (2010)

Rob Scuderi (2009)

the injured Simon Gagne (2011)

Trades:

Jeff Carter from Columbus for Jack Johnson (2011)

Mike Richards for Brayden Schenn and the very productive Wayne Simmonds (2011)

Colin Fraser from Edmonton for Ryan Smyth (2011)

Dustin Penner from Edmonton for a top prospect and two draft picks. (2010)

Justin Williams from the Hurricanes for Patrick O'Sullivan and a 2nd rounder (2009)

Jared Stoll & Matt Greene from Edmonton for Lubomir Vishnovsky (2008)

Brad Richardson from the Avalanche for a 2nd rounder (2008)

As for UNRESTRICTED free agents outside of Parise and Suter .... Jarrett Stoll, Dustin Penner certainly come to mind, also Dennis Wideman (Washington), Matt Carle (Phila.), Pavel Kubina (Phila.), Brad Boyes (Buffalo), Ollie Jokinen (Calgary), David Jones (Colorado), Taylor Pyatt (Phoenix), Stephen Gionta (New Jersey), Travis Moen (Montreal). I haven't fully researched any of them, or know of their suitability in terms of chemistry with the DRW organization, but I'm pretty sure they're all in their low 30s or younger. I'm sure there are others also. As for trades, I'll have to think about that a little.

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