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I want to spend some down time this summer at a place where can I relax, veg out, and do absolutely nothing. In other words, wherever Kenny Holland has been spending the summer.

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Fair weather fans. Okay, so have fun watching Canucks games.....you know, since the Wings have just completely given up and all that.

Yep, that's me alright, a fairweather fan. Have been a fan since the Darkness Under Harkness days, have spent thousands of dollars (money well spent), have spent tens of thousands of hours (time well spent), and have often been calling a homer ... supporting this team. But God forbid one makes a mildly critical comment about St. Kenny.

Holland helped build this team - he deserves a ton of credit. But tell me, what big roster improvements has he traded for or signed in the 4 offseasons ('09, '10, '11, '12 year to date) since signing Hossa in '08 - Ian White? Bertuzzi?

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Um.....you may be overstating that just a bit, eh?

Both the dynasty part and the death part.

yes, of course.

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What big roster improvements did pull off in '08?

Signed Hossa. A few months earlier got Brad Stuart at the trade deadline.

Edited by lordstanley

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Signed Hossa. A few months earlier got Brad Stuart at the trade deadline.

Saw Hossa and that your list started with 09, missed the 08 part, and thought you were using the end of the season. Same question for 07 then.

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They didn't go after Semin because they didn't want him...it's a roster decision that I'm willing to give them the benfit of the doubt on. They made fair offers to both Suter and Parise...Minnesota made the decision to make them their cornerstone. The Wings weren't in a position to do that. They inquired about Nash and Weber...for various reasons neither were actually availabe to them. Someone is apparently willing to give Doan 30 million over four years. That's crazy, drunk talk.

I blame the circumstances of each situation more than I do Holland. Regardless...the team will be fine. The league appears to be moving even closer to parity where everyone will have 80 pts and they'll pick the Cup winner with a talent show like American Idol...

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I blame the circumstances of each situation more than I do Holland. Regardless...the team will be fine. The league appears to be moving even closer to parity where everyone will have 80 pts and they'll pick the Cup winner with a talent show like American Idol...

I agree. This seems to be the result of a hard cap system (i.e., pretty much all teams are about the same minus a few outlines on either side of the spectrum).

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Saw Hossa and that your list started with 09, missed the 08 part, and thought you were using the end of the season. Same question for 07 then.

Not sure offhand. Bringing Hasek and/or Osgood back maybe?

What Kenny has done a very good job at is keeping the core together with creative contracts. And more recently, I think picking up Ian White (although I was sarcastic earlier) and Kyle Quincey were decent attempts to add defense depth knowing Lidstrom and Stuart would be soon gone. Need to make a couple of more pickups like that.

Yes, the reported offers for Doan are crazy money - I never expected him here anyways.

I don't think the Wings' current challenge can be fully linked to the salary cap. The cap wasn't a limitation this off-season or the last.

I just don't think Holland can count on the quaint concept of "hometown discounts". You deserve market value for playing for the Wings and if guys like Kronwall signed for less to stay here are they thrilled about all this unused cap space? They could've given Kronwall an extra $1mm per year after all, for example, and still fit comfortably after the cap. I can't really guess how the players feel. But to me, unused cap space would bother me more than a short-term deal being paid to someone coming in from the outside, even one that gives the new player a higher annual salary than me. And I'm not just talking Semin. There are probably other players who could have been had for big $/low term to get the Wings through the year until they see how guys like Smith and Nyquist are developing.

Edited by lordstanley

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And the Wings with this roster are NOT guaranteed to be a playoff team.

Ahhhhgreed .... NEXT!:smoker:

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I'll be seeing my parade and Stanley Cup in Grand Ledge in a couple weeks. Won't miss it. The chances of seeing it again anywhere in Michigan in my lifetime are becoming slimmer by the day.

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I'll be seeing my parade and Stanley Cup in Grand Ledge in a couple weeks. Won't miss it. The chances of seeing it again anywhere in Michigan in my lifetime are becoming slimmer by the day.

Unless you're 85, I'm confident you'll see another 1 or 2 :nervous:

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I'm with LS on Holland as of now. Standing pat with a team that was basically smacked out of the first round and lost two of the best defensmen is unacceptable. They have a TON of cap room still and are no better than they were when Nashville beat them. And I'm sure someone will say the "just because they have money doesn't mean they have to spend it", but this is the Red Wings, not the Blue Jackets. Yes, they made good offers to Parise and Suter and didn't get them, but not going after these other free agents is unacceptable. I love this team and have followed them religiously for 20 years but right now, I worry about them being a top team anymore or making any sort of run.

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I agree, they should offer the top 2 defenseman left 8 million per year. Who cares about talent. This is Detroit, if you have money you have to spend it. Whatever is left they can offer to Doan for 4 years. That way there will be 3 ****** contracts on the books in 3 years that everyone can point to as why the Wings are handcuffed when there is actually a good player available they want to sign.

Besides Semin, and I think there are a lot of teams that could have used him at that price but passed, what would you have done different?

You don't think Holland knows he needs 2 defensemen? If he doesn't get a top pairing guy then that's because a top paring guy wasn't available.

The quickest path the being a bad team is getting saddled with bad contracts.

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I'm not saying hand out bad contracts like Franzen's crappy deal. And in no way do I want Doan for the crazy money he wants. But it seems that the trade rumors have subsided, the talk of them adding more players has died down, and the Wings are going to camp hoping these young guys are as good as they hope. That thought scares me.

If I could have gotten Semin for that deal for one year, I would have done it in a heartbeat, thrown him next to Pavel and see what happens. While we all didn't like Hudler that much, he put in 20 goals on a teams that doesn't have a lot of big scorers. Adding Samuelsson and Tootoo was fine so long as they added other bigger pieces which they didn't, making those deals look awful. There are not any solid free agents left on the market so the only route to take is trade.

Do you feel confident in this team to be a contender right now? I don't and as a fan am not happy with the direction they seem to be taking. Now if the young talents come up and produce right away then I will be the first to say I was wrong. But they need help on both ends of the ice right now and Holland has to make something happen as I feel his stock has sunk the last 2 seasons.

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I'm not saying hand out bad contracts like Franzen's crappy deal. And in no way do I want Doan for the crazy money he wants. But it seems that the trade rumors have subsided, the talk of them adding more players has died down, and the Wings are going to camp hoping these young guys are as good as they hope. That thought scares me.

If I could have gotten Semin for that deal for one year, I would have done it in a heartbeat, thrown him next to Pavel and see what happens. While we all didn't like Hudler that much, he put in 20 goals on a teams that doesn't have a lot of big scorers. Adding Samuelsson and Tootoo was fine so long as they added other bigger pieces which they didn't, making those deals look awful. There are not any solid free agents left on the market so the only route to take is trade.

Do you feel confident in this team to be a contender right now? I don't and as a fan am not happy with the direction they seem to be taking. Now if the young talents come up and produce right away then I will be the first to say I was wrong. But they need help on both ends of the ice right now and Holland has to make something happen as I feel his stock has sunk the last 2 seasons.

I am just thinking that Semin and Babcock in the same locker room would not have been a good idea (and yes, there is a dirty joke in there if you work at it, but I am strictly talking hockey here).

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I'm not saying hand out bad contracts like Franzen's crappy deal. And in no way do I want Doan for the crazy money he wants. But it seems that the trade rumors have subsided, the talk of them adding more players has died down, and the Wings are going to camp hoping these young guys are as good as they hope. That thought scares me.

If I could have gotten Semin for that deal for one year, I would have done it in a heartbeat, thrown him next to Pavel and see what happens. While we all didn't like Hudler that much, he put in 20 goals on a teams that doesn't have a lot of big scorers. Adding Samuelsson and Tootoo was fine so long as they added other bigger pieces which they didn't, making those deals look awful. There are not any solid free agents left on the market so the only route to take is trade.

Do you feel confident in this team to be a contender right now? I don't and as a fan am not happy with the direction they seem to be taking. Now if the young talents come up and produce right away then I will be the first to say I was wrong. But they need help on both ends of the ice right now and Holland has to make something happen as I feel his stock has sunk the last 2 seasons.

I care as much about the team today as I do about it's future. They tried to spend big money on good players and didn't get them. That's all you can ask for. I'm not a big proponent of the "they have money so they should spend it" idea. The should spend money on good players. That's what they've been trying to do.

I'm not a fan of basketball at all, but the alternative to this approach gets you Ben Gordon, Charlie Villanueva, and roster inflexibility for several years.

I think the team is good enough to make the playoffs and maybe make a trade at the deadline or try to spend big again next offseason. Considering what was available this year, I don't think Ken Holland has done anything wrong.

I still don't see how Fanzen is a bad contract. He makes less per year than Jiri Hudler.

EDIT: That Franzen comment just boggles my mind. You tout the virtue of Hurdler and his 20 goals then discount Franzen and his near 30, for less. Hudler's production over he past few years doesn't look all that different than Samuelsson, and he's 1 million dollars cheaper.

Edited by sagnam

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How do you know what you are asserting here to justify your claim that Howson is an idiot and a bad GM is true or relevant? Oh, ya I forgot you have a bunch of inside information because you work in the front office.

The only one who called him an idiot is you. There's a reason why I said, "if the rumors are true" and I'll reiterate that if what was being said about the offers was true, then how can you argue not taking the best deal isn't a bad move.

Furthermore, Howson has had the job as GM since 2007.

2011-12 - Dead last in the NHL

2010-11 - 13th in the West

2009-10 - 14th in the West

2008-09 - 7th in the West, made the playoffs, lost in the 1st round

2007-08 - 13th in the West

The trades he's made haven't done anything to improve the team, which is evident by the fact that they've continued to be one of the worst teams in the league during his tenure. Half of the guys he's traded for left or got traded again themselves. His free agent signings haven't been stellar either. I think Huselius & Commodore are the two biggest names that he signed in his 5 year stretch, and that's not saying much.

Maybe that's enough to justify why I don't think Howson is a good GM, or maybe you've got another smart-*** comment that does nothing to actually add to the conversation...

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The only one who called him an idiot is you.

For the record, I called Howson both stupid and a bad GM.

As for proof, I think his record speaks for itself.

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The only one who called him an idiot is you. There's a reason why I said, "if the rumors are true" and I'll reiterate that if what was being said about the offers was true, then how can you argue not taking the best deal isn't a bad move.

Furthermore, Howson has had the job as GM since 2007.

2011-12 - Dead last in the NHL

2010-11 - 13th in the West

2009-10 - 14th in the West

2008-09 - 7th in the West, made the playoffs, lost in the 1st round

2007-08 - 13th in the West

The trades he's made haven't done anything to improve the team, which is evident by the fact that they've continued to be one of the worst teams in the league during his tenure. Half of the guys he's traded for left or got traded again themselves. His free agent signings haven't been stellar either. I think Huselius & Commodore are the two biggest names that he signed in his 5 year stretch, and that's not saying much.

Maybe that's enough to justify why I don't think Howson is a good GM, or maybe you've got another smart-*** comment that does nothing to actually add to the conversation...

haha. No its not enough. So What? I think you're an angry person. Why direct your anger at Howson. Why Not Holland, which is where you really have a problem right now. Right/ Howson is just doing what he needs to do. Doesn't make him a bad GM. You didn't like his moves? Pretty sure he was just trying to improve his team. Get a grip:speech:

Edited by skyguy52

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Nope. Not giving Holland or Company a pass on this one. Been three years and someone had to see it coming. Hasnt' it? What are we paying these guys for?

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Nope. Not giving Holland or Company a pass on this one. Been three years and someone had to see it coming. Hasnt' it? What are we paying these guys for?

The last three years have been pretty good. An exciting charge into the playoffs by an injury-ravaged team in '09 followed by a road Game 7 victory. Another series victory in '10 followed by one of the most thrilling playoff series I have ever seen, in which the Wings fall just 2 goals short from pulling off the 3-0 comeback stunner. Then this year leading the NHL at the All-Star Break and setting a home streak reord.

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haha. No its not enough. So What? I think you're an angry person. Why direct your anger at Howson. Why Not Holland, which is where you really have a problem right now. Right/ Howson is just doing what he needs to do. Doesn't make him a bad GM. You didn't like his moves? Pretty sure he was just trying to improve his team. Get a grip:speech:

I'm not directing any anger towards Howson, I think he's a bad GM, and I think his track record speaks for itself. I'm not 100% happy with the moves, or lack of for that matter from Holland this year, but he doesn't deserve to be to be mentioned in the same sentence as Howson. Lets see....One of the two has had a team that made the playoffs every year since being hired, the other has only seen his team make the playoffs once.

He was just trying to improve the team, but hasn't done so by making poor trades & being almost non-existent in the FA market. Hate to break it to you, but trying & continuing to fail doesn't cut it. I guess Matt Millen wasn't a bad GM either....after all he was just trying to help his team....

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