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They need 5-6 Forwards? What?

Where do you get that I said they need 5-6 fwds? I'm saying besides a top D man, they likely need a top-6 fwd because, from what I've seen out of Franzen last year, he isn't exactly what I consider a top six guy. He seems to be erratic or only plays hard when he wants to. They'll have to keep him and if he doesn't produce put him down on the third line and find someone else to get the job done. In addition, they could use good back-up goalie , and 2-3 others, one of whom needs to be counted on for scoring 20-25 goals/season reliably. Thats if Hudler, whose basically a one dimensional player, leaves and everything I'm hearing says he's good as gone. Same with Stuart. He's likely gone, so they'll need someone to replace him with someone at his level. As far as either Smith or Nyquist, or both being in that mix of forwards, its yet to be seen. If Holland is counting on them, they're going to need to step it up.

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I wonder if it's time for a new head coach? I think Babcock is really good but I'm not sure this team is motivated.

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I have a lot of respect and admiration for Babcock, however you make a good point. However the likelihood of a head coach change is about as good as the Wings landing Parise right now.

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I wonder if it's time for a new head coach? I think Babcock is really good but I'm not sure this team is motivated.

This reasoning is similar to the stale idea posted earlier in this thread. My feelings on this are exactly the same as that.

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So you're telling me, since the Wings lost Lidstrom and Stuart, despite being 1st overall in the NHL for awhile and finished 8th overall, that unless they completely overhaul the team they're done? They played poorly because they were missing more than just Lidstrom. Sometimes good teams play poorly.

I agree they need some changes, big ones even, but come on.

I'm just saying tweakin a couple of things isn't going to do it. The Wings need couple top 6/8 people, a D man for certain, maybe even two, along with additions of skilled forwards for the 3/4 lines besides who they may bring up from GR if they are going to be SERIOUS cup contenders. Holland as got $20m in cap space. He says they're going to be aggressive, I'll believe it when I see it.

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This reasoning is similar to the stale idea posted earlier in this thread. My feelings on this are exactly the same as that.

What stale idea is that?

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Stick with the same organizational philosophy that has worked for 20+ years with and without a salary cap.

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That may be going stale. Hasn't worked too good last 3 years or so. Talent they have is getting older, a few of them are well past their prime. A couple aren't playing up to their potential. I think you know who I'm talking about.

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Stick with the same organizational philosophy that has worked for 20+ years with and without a salary cap.

Since when did I imply to change the philosophy? It wasn't even a solid belief of mine. Mike Babcock isn't the only guy who could coach the Wings the "right way"

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I'm just saying tweakin a couple of things isn't going to do it. The Wings need couple top 6/8 people, a D man for certain, maybe even two, along with additions of skilled forwards for the 3/4 lines besides who they may bring up from GR if they are going to be SERIOUS cup contenders. Holland as got $20m in cap space. He says they're going to be aggressive, I'll believe it when I see it.

Well yeah, I definitely agree.

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I was at one time against this team adding anyone over 30. However, given that A) Ken Holland will not tank this team into oblivion in order to draft high for a few consecutive years B) We have a boat load of cap space to spend and C) Datsuyk and Zetterberg's window to make this team a cup contender is fading fast, I'll spend what I got and go for it all.

The WITH Suter and Parise plan...

Free-Agents...

Ryan Suter (D) and Zach Parise (F) plus David Jones (F) and Michal Roseval (D)

The WITHOUT Suter plan...

Free Agents and Trades...

Zach Parise plus Jarrett Stoll © David Jones (F), Michal Roseval (D)

Wings Get: Trevor Daley and Michael Ryder

Stars Get: Johan Franzen, 2013 2nd & 4th Rd. Picks, 2014 4th Rd. Pick

The WITHOUT Parise plan...

Free Agents/Trade...

Ryan Suter (D) plus Jarrett Stoll ©, David Jones (F) and Michal Roseval (D)

Wings Get: Michael Ryder

Stars Get: 2013 2nd & 4th Rd picks

The because we MISSED BOTH Suter and Parise but I heart Loui Erikkson a lot plan...

Free Agents/Trades...

Jarrett Stoll ©, David Jones (F), Michal Roseval (D)

Wings Get: Loui Erikkson (F) from the Stars and Drew Stafford (F) from the Sabres

Stars Get: 2013 1st, 2nd & 5th Rd. Picks, Riley Sheahan (LW) and Tomas Jurco (RW) from the Wings and 2013 3rd & 4th Rd. picks from the Sabres

Sabres Get: Michael Ryder (F) from Stars and 2013 3rd & 4th Rd. picks from the Wings

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What, really? I don't think it's that bleak

I don't think what I was saying was that bleak. The Wings finished 12 points ahead of 9th place this season. As of a week ago, they probably were not as good as they looked the first 60 games and not as bad as they looked the last 20 games and the playoffs. So let's say the exact same roster would get 102 points again. But Lidstrom is gone. Stuart is 99% gone. Hudler is 90% gone. So let's assume those 3 are gone. Homer probably too. Nyquist will be here for a full year and be better. Quincey will be better than he showed. White will look more like 2nd half White. Cleary should be better. Otherwise depends on injuries - some players will be healthier than they were this year, some players will be less healthy. Smith will make a contribution. So with NO other roster additions I could see that team getting 90-95 points and fighting for a playoff berth.

But of course Holland will do something. So he signs Suter, great. Suter `13 would be better than Lidstrom `12. By enough to probably offset the loss of Stuart. But Suter alone doesn`t make the `13 Wings better than the `12 Wings. You need to add two top-6 forward IMO. One to replace Hudler+, one to take a step forward. Do that and the Wings are in the mix for top 5 overall. Top 5 overall is what I consider to be my definition of `Stanley Cup contender`. Virtually every year over the past 15-25-40 years the Cup winner has been Top 5 overall. Of course it`s possible for lower-ranked teams to win, as will happen this year, but that has been the exception. Maybe in the new reality of the parity NHL the Top 16 will all have shots, but I`m still aiming for Top 5. Year in year out icing a Top 5 team will get you more Cups and deep runs than merely a Top 16 team.

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I am not at all against adding a player over 30. That is part of the re-tooling vs re-building. Add a Olie Jokienen ect. or bring back a Sammy. These guys can be had for 1 or 2 years and give you depth without commitment.

This team needs much more than just tweaks. Lucky for them, there is still a strong enough core where they can bounce back with a somewhat different idenity next year and still be a Cup contender.

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David Jones from Colorado would be a perfect front line addition for the Wings. He is a forward under the age of 30, he shoots right handed and he can score 20 plus goals a season. If they miss out on signing David Jones, I shall be sad.

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I don't think what I was saying was that bleak. The Wings finished 12 points ahead of 9th place this season. As of a week ago, they probably were not as good as they looked the first 60 games and not as bad as they looked the last 20 games and the playoffs. So let's say the exact same roster would get 102 points again. But Lidstrom is gone. Stuart is 99% gone. Hudler is 90% gone. So let's assume those 3 are gone. Homer probably too. Nyquist will be here for a full year and be better. Quincey will be better than he showed. White will look more like 2nd half White. Cleary should be better. Otherwise depends on injuries - some players will be healthier than they were this year, some players will be less healthy. Smith will make a contribution. So with NO other roster additions I could see that team getting 90-95 points and fighting for a playoff berth.

But of course Holland will do something. So he signs Suter, great. Suter `13 would be better than Lidstrom `12. By enough to probably offset the loss of Stuart. But Suter alone doesn`t make the `13 Wings better than the `12 Wings. You need to add two top-6 forward IMO. One to replace Hudler+, one to take a step forward. Do that and the Wings are in the mix for top 5 overall. Top 5 overall is what I consider to be my definition of `Stanley Cup contender`. Virtually every year over the past 15-25-40 years the Cup winner has been Top 5 overall. Of course it`s possible for lower-ranked teams to win, as will happen this year, but that has been the exception. Maybe in the new reality of the parity NHL the Top 16 will all have shots, but I`m still aiming for Top 5. Year in year out icing a Top 5 team will get you more Cups and deep runs than merely a Top 16 team.

need to replace the likes of Holmstrom IMO. Bertuzzi is NOT a top six forward unless the other two guys on the line he's on make him look good. Both are well past their prime. Who's going to pick up the slack (either by way of additions or GR) for these two? Unless both pick up their game significantly neither will do much to help the Wings get to Top 5 or 6.

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Where do you get that I said they need 5-6 fwds?
yes, its that bleak. The Wings will need at least a couple top six players, a D and a fwd, a DECENT/reliable back up goalie, and at minimum 2-3 good, young, big strong players to beef up their 3rd and 4th lines. In that mix they will need a GOOD face-off guy and someone that can stay in front of the net and score goals on the PP. All that is at a minimum.

A couple top six players = 2

A D and a fwd = 1 more forward

minimum 2-3 good, young, big strong players to beef up their 3rd and 4th lines = 2-3 more

edit: as soon as I re-read from my post I'm guessing now that the couple top six players are the D and Forward. I thought that was one big list. I'd agree they need a top-4 defenseman and a top-6 winger this off-season. Have you looked at the free agent lists and seen anything that catches your eye? I'm starting to think Semin will be the winger since him and Datsyuk did well at the worlds together. I'm not sure if they'll go after 2-3 good, young, big strong players (which are hard to come by anyways), but I wouldn't put it past them to add one. I think you're laying out an ideal offseason, but unrealistic.

Edited by drownwithyou

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Word out of Nashville is that Suter and the Preds are involved in talks and have made positive progress...Unless he's only looking at dollar signs, can't really see why he'd leave Nashville, which he supposedly loves...

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That may be going stale. Hasn't worked too good last 3 years or so. Talent they have is getting older, a few of them are well past their prime. A couple aren't playing up to their potential. I think you know who I'm talking about.

You are a spoiled fan if you think it hasn't worked the last 3 years or so.(the "or so" is especially confusing because they went to game 7 of the finals 4 seasons ago, the first year of the "or so" era. And they won a cup in the second season of the "or so" era.)

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Since when did I imply to change the philosophy? It wasn't even a solid belief of mine. Mike Babcock isn't the only guy who could coach the Wings the "right way"

lol, I quoted someone else asking me directly what I've do. Why you decided that had anything to do with you is beyond me.

Since you brought it up, who cares if someone else can do it too, they have a guy that can do it now, and do it well. Change for change is stupid. How many coaches have the Wings had in the last 20 years?

Is Nashville stupid for not changing coaches?

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A couple top six players = 2

A D and a fwd = 1 more forward

minimum 2-3 good, young, big strong players to beef up their 3rd and 4th lines = 2-3 more

edit: as soon as I re-read from my post I'm guessing now that the couple top six players are the D and Forward. I thought that was one big list. I'd agree they need a top-4 defenseman and a top-6 winger this off-season. Have you looked at the free agent lists and seen anything that catches your eye? I'm starting to think Semin will be the winger since him and Datsyuk did well at the worlds together. I'm not sure if they'll go after 2-3 good, young, big strong players (which are hard to come by anyways), but I wouldn't put it past them to add one. I think you're laying out an ideal offseason, but unrealistic.

yes Idealistic but they have to get better. With $20 Million I see potential for adding 2-3 top-6 to include both D and Forwards. Add a couple more for good measure, whether that be Smith and/or Nyquist or others via trades, and we have the makings of a serious cup contender. I'm not sure yet about what to do with Filps (keep or trade), or what the status is on Homer (retire or keep). We'll soon see. The right overall chemistry and mix of new talent is a major consideration for Holland, but no question the team has to get a lot better to contend. A lot will depend on how healthy and strong Cleary is next year. He's still a question mark.

I'm not a fan of Semin. Not enough of a two-way player. Need a couple reliable two-way guys more a one-dimensional guy like him.

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yes Idealistic but they have to get better. With $20 Million I see potential for adding 2-3 top-6 to include both D and Forwards. Add a couple more for good measure, whether that be Smith and/or Nyquist or others via trades, and we have the makings of a serious cup contender. I'm not sure yet about what to do with Filps (keep or trade), or what the status is on Homer (retire or keep). We'll soon see. The right overall chemistry and mix of new talent is a major consideration for Holland, but no question the team has to get a lot better to contend. A lot will depend on how healthy and strong Cleary is next year. He's still a question mark.

I'm not a fan of Semin. Not enough of a two-way player. Need a couple reliable two-way guys more a one-dimensional guy like him.

I don't feel like every player on the ice has to be a two way player. I think the Wings are loaded with 20 goal scorers who are good defensively. I have no problem picking up a guy who just wants to put the puck in the net.

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You are a spoiled fan if you think it hasn't worked the last 3 years or so.(the "or so" is especially confusing because they went to game 7 of the finals 4 seasons ago, the first year of the "or so" era. And they won a cup in the second season of the "or so" era.)

not spoiled, just not willing to accept status quo. You're right, game 7 2009 was the last game they were a "contender'. Since then they've basically been resting on their laurels. Good but not good enough. Despite their success during regular season, it really means very little. In any given year 18-20 teams are good enough to MAKE the playoffs. Only 5-6 of them are serious contenders to win the cup, which is what its all about. Obviously the Wings have not been serious contenders and, to be honest, this month Holland can do some things to make them contenders again. No tweaking though, Please.

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I don't feel like every player on the ice has to be a two way player. I think the Wings are loaded with 20 goal scorers who are good defensively. I have no problem picking up a guy who just wants to put the puck in the net.

Would I ever like to see someone like Federov in the line up... Besides Dats and Z, probably their other two best 2-way guys (on a reliable basis) are Filps and Cleary. I'd like to put Franzen in there, but sorry I can't. I know he scored a lot last year but for some reason he doesn't seem to me to be that much of a threat unless he decides to be one.

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