Jump to content

Deleterious

2012 Pistons Offseason

Recommended Posts

stupid espn. their headline on the front page is "Bobcats Package Maggette, Pick for Gordon." the text of the article indicates otherwise.

Yeah, I saw that too. I didn't think it was Ben Gordon at first simply because they made it sound like a pick was coming, and with the draft approaching, I kind of assumed it was one of those picks.

Sure enough, I saw it was our Gordon so I was pretty happy at first, but then I kept reading to see we we're giving up the pick...

Either way, I'm 100% on board with the trade. We save some cash, and get rid of that bonus year that was on BG's (terrible) contract. But as I hinted at before, we'll see what Joe D does with this potential cap room. And I forgot to mention before, if he uses the amnesty clause on CV, that could put our cap room somewhere between $25-30 million, again, depending on FA/Rookie signings & whether or not Maxiell exercises his player option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dumars is just awful. I'm so frustrated right now with him and the NBA. I hate how teams trade for expiring contracts, I hate how teams tank to get better picks, I hate how GM's can trade awful FA signings and a 1st rounder for an expiring bum and it's considered a good step.

I have loved this league my whole life and think I'm finally melting down. This league and it's econonic setup does nothing for it's fans and their enjoyment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Detroit is now in 100x better position than they were before. Prior to today, they could have used the amnesty clause on Charlie V or Gordon, but they'd still have the other bad contract. Now they can amnesty Charlie V, and look what it does to the overall roster: Knight, Stuckey, Prince, the #9 Pick and Monroe are the pieces on their current roster that will be sticking around. Prince only because he's signed for three more years. Knight, Stuckey, Prince, the #9 Pick and Monroe combined make about $25 million in 2013. That means the Pistons will have $30 million in space next summer. They will probably be a lottery team next year because their current core isn't a playoff team. So, add another lotto pick to the mix and add a few million to the total. Now you're looking at Knight, Stuckey, Prince, #9 pick, 2013 Lotto pick, and Monroe as your core with $25 million in cap space to spend on free agents. That's a damn good start. The Pistons can build on that. 2013-2014 is also when Monroe will be due for an extension, so they're going to have to save some money to pay him. With all of those pieces in place for the 2013-2014 season, the top-8 protection on the pick almost becomes irrelevant, because unless they really mess up in free agency, that team will probably be pretty good. All-in-all when you examine how the team is set up. You're probably looking at like Ben Gordon + 2014 Mid-First Rounder for Maggette's expiring. Detroit is better off today than they were yesterday. The franchise now has a direction. Good move.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will be fine as soon as I can admit that it's OK for a GM to make major mistakes once in awhile. Things are looking clearer now and like froggy said, there's a clearer direction and plan in place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I will be fine as soon as I can admit that it's OK for a GM to make major mistakes once in awhile. Things are looking clearer now and like froggy said, there's a clearer direction and plan in place.

Regardless of the clearer direction we now have, I'm not getting too excited about anything yet. Joe D has already shown that he can have a ton of money to spend and have it go to waste. I'll admit it looks better than it has in the past couple years, but at the same time, that's not really saying much....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The first of many moves I hope. SF depth chart is now Tayshaun, Maggette, Jerebko, CV, Wilkins(fa), Daye and Singler. Mayyybe 4 of those guys will be left standing. Maybe a trade up into late 1st for a tall SG or value PF/C?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Regardless of the clearer direction we now have, I'm not getting too excited about anything yet. Joe D has already shown that he can have a ton of money to spend and have it go to waste. I'll admit it looks better than it has in the past couple years, but at the same time, that's not really saying much....

No question that I agree with you.

I will consider the Pistons in a much, much better place if they use the amnesty on Tayshaun. Does anyone see this happening? A stupid, stupid deal in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They can't amnesty Tayshaun. He signed his deal after the CBA, it had to be signed before then to be eligible. Maggette and CV are our only worthwhile amnesty guys at this point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
They can't amnesty Tayshaun. He signed his deal after the CBA, it had to be signed before then to be eligible. Maggette and CV are our only worthwhile amnesty guys at this point.

Right, thanks. This article is to blame.

Detroit flips Ben Gordon and a protected pick to the Charlotte Bobcats for Corey Maggette | Ball Don't Lie - Yahoo! Sports

I should have known better. Plus, CV makes all kinds of sense, naturally. We pretend 2009 never happened essentially.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dysfunctional Pistons lose Ben Gordon trade « PistonPowered

As that first-round picks hangs in limbo between Detroit and Charlotte – maybe even longer if the eventually drafted player does well for Bobcats– the Pistons are still operating in the shadow of July 1, 2009.

Necessary trade, better than the one that would have cost us Brandon Knight. It's still crumby that a team that was in position for most of the year to be at the top of the lottery before everyone else started to tank and still had t5th worst point differential in the NBA has to give up their 1st pick relatively soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You cannot amnesty Maggette either fyi because we traded for him. CV is only realistic option to amnesty. Maxiell could also be included I guess, but his contract is way more bareable than CV's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The first of many moves I hope. SF depth chart is now Tayshaun, Maggette, Jerebko, CV, Wilkins(fa), Daye and Singler. Mayyybe 4 of those guys will be left standing. Maybe a trade up into late 1st for a tall SG or value PF/C?

This is definitely an interesting numbers game, as some of these guys have value and some have negative value. Let's look at these guys:

Prince: He's slightly overpaid for his production and he would be of better use on a championship contender. A nice fit would be the Lakers or Dallas, as he would be a better fit than anyone they could draft in the first round. Would we have to package one (both?) of our second round picks with him and eat some of his salary? How nice would it be to have two first rounders in this draft, get some short and long-term salary relief, and relieve some of our log-jam at swingman?

Jerebko: JJ would be a very marketable player, imo, in the trade market. Unfortunately, he represents our most dependable bench player going into next season. JJ, in some ways, represents everything we would want in a combo forward who can either come off the bench or start—he's cheap, he always gives 100%, he's versatile and he's skilled. I would hate to see him go.

Maggette: CG is past his prime and injury prone at 33. He's got one more year left on an $11m contract, and when healthy this guy can really score. Unfortunately, in spite of his once-great physical gifts, CG never turned into a great all-around player. I blame that on only playing one year of college, where he didn't even have a starring role. He would be attractive for a team looking to trade an overloaded position player for an expiring contract.

Charlie V: The class clown of the team, his value is at an all-time low. At one time, he would have been a good role player on a contender. Maybe with some hard work, he could still be—but that would mean he would actually have to put in hard work (unlikely). It is hard to believe this guy ever scored 51 points in an NBA game. He is an amnesty candidate as much for symbolic reasons as he is for financial reasons. If Dumars can trade him for anything that could help the team, I would be thrilled and shocked.

Daye: Nobody knows what to make of this guy other than that he has been pretty unproductive in the NBA so far. He teases with occasional great shooting displays, he grabs your attention with grabbing a bunch of rebounds from the wing, and then he goes into a funk. He was supposed to be the heir apparent to Prince, but now he's just his stunt double. Guys like Daye have found homes where they've been productive (Tony Campbell comes to mind) in the past, but he would certainly have negative trade value at this point.

Singler: Singler, right now, is a poor man's Jerebko. He's shorter than JJ, and has a smaller build. But, he's a high-effort player who can shoot the ball and do all the little things right. He could have some value as a throw in to a bigger deal, but his biggest value may come if we are forced to trade Jerebko for a "bigger picture" type of deal. It is probably fair to call Singler insurance at this point.

My overall feeling, combined with last night's dealing of Gordon, is that the Pistons are going to try and get a second first round pick. I don't know if that means them moving down from 9 AND moving up from the upper-second round, or if it means we get to keep our current pick, but I really feel Dumars is putting a lot of emphasis into this draft and off-season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dysfunctional Pistons lose Ben Gordon trade « PistonPowered

Necessary trade, better than the one that would have cost us Brandon Knight. It's still crumby that a team that was in position for most of the year to be at the top of the lottery before everyone else started to tank and still had t5th worst point differential in the NBA has to give up their 1st pick relatively soon.

That story was a real turd and completely negative. If the writer wanted to do a story on the demise of the Pistons or on how bad of a GM Dumars had been over the past 8 or 9 seasons, then he should have written that story. Saying the trade was bad is very short-sighted, and he showed it by having to reference the past.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That article has a bunch of poorly written parts.

The Pistons are selling this trade as a way to clear cap room – and it will, to the tune of $13.2 million next summer. But if cap room was the real goal, the obvious step would have been amnestying Gordon.

If they are truly trying to clear cap, they need to get rid of CV and Gordon. Gordon was the only one who was tradeable, so this gives them the option (by using the amnesty on CV) of getting them both off the cap. Amnestying Gordon and keeping CV would have just been stupid. Now if they don't amnesty or buy out CV, then the cap argument dies somewhat, but this does actually save $14-15 million in cash which amnestying does not. Is that worth a draft pick to open up playing time to players who are in the long range plans? I definitely think so.

The issue isn’t paying Gordon. That’s a sunk cost. The problem is paying his replacement. The larger the amnestied contract for a team under the luxury tax, the more that team – at least if its trying to win – will spend on a replacement. Basically, a team pays around double in real dollars for the roster slot of an amnestied player.

Huh? They only pay double in real dollars if they actually spend the same amount on the amnestied player's replacement. Amnestying anyone by themselves wouldn't have gotten us under the cap this season anyhow. The issue is next season where now they have the option of being rid of both contracts cap wise and Gordon's in real $. Yes they would be paying for CV's replacement, but what is better, paying CV to sit on the bench and be the influence he has been to the young players or paying a player league minimum to take his spot on the bench and maybe develop into something?

The Pistons must believe they’ll make the playoffs next season to make this trade, and they should think they have a good chance of winning a round if they were willing to draw the protection line at 14.

I saw the same thing in the Detroit News Article and this doesn't make any sense to me. IMO, the complete lottery protection for next year shows me they think there is a decent chance they won't make the playoffs as if they make them, they lose their pick. It looks like they think they will make the playoffs in 2014 to have only a top 8 protection.

Another possible benefit from this trade. Hopefully in getting Maggette, an experienced SF, Dumars will be willing to lower his demands and move Prince.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I should add, obviously the initial signings of CV and Gordon were foolish and led to this trade, but based on the past 3 years, this trade was much better than doing nothing but waiting for 2 more years. This gives the potential for significant progress in the 2013-14 season where waiting would have slowed that another year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is definitely an interesting numbers game, as some of these guys have value and some have negative value. Let's look at these guys:

Prince: He's slightly overpaid for his production and he would be of better use on a championship contender. A nice fit would be the Lakers or Dallas, as he would be a better fit than anyone they could draft in the first round. Would we have to package one (both?) of our second round picks with him and eat some of his salary? How nice would it be to have two first rounders in this draft, get some short and long-term salary relief, and relieve some of our log-jam at swingman?

Jerebko: JJ would be a very marketable player, imo, in the trade market. Unfortunately, he represents our most dependable bench player going into next season. JJ, in some ways, represents everything we would want in a combo forward who can either come off the bench or start—he's cheap, he always gives 100%, he's versatile and he's skilled. I would hate to see him go.

Maggette: CG is past his prime and injury prone at 33. He's got one more year left on an $11m contract, and when healthy this guy can really score. Unfortunately, in spite of his once-great physical gifts, CG never turned into a great all-around player. I blame that on only playing one year of college, where he didn't even have a starring role. He would be attractive for a team looking to trade an overloaded position player for an expiring contract.

Charlie V: The class clown of the team, his value is at an all-time low. At one time, he would have been a good role player on a contender. Maybe with some hard work, he could still be—but that would mean he would actually have to put in hard work (unlikely). It is hard to believe this guy ever scored 51 points in an NBA game. He is an amnesty candidate as much for symbolic reasons as he is for financial reasons. If Dumars can trade him for anything that could help the team, I would be thrilled and shocked.

Daye: Nobody knows what to make of this guy other than that he has been pretty unproductive in the NBA so far. He teases with occasional great shooting displays, he grabs your attention with grabbing a bunch of rebounds from the wing, and then he goes into a funk. He was supposed to be the heir apparent to Prince, but now he's just his stunt double. Guys like Daye have found homes where they've been productive (Tony Campbell comes to mind) in the past, but he would certainly have negative trade value at this point.

Singler: Singler, right now, is a poor man's Jerebko. He's shorter than JJ, and has a smaller build. But, he's a high-effort player who can shoot the ball and do all the little things right. He could have some value as a throw in to a bigger deal, but his biggest value may come if we are forced to trade Jerebko for a "bigger picture" type of deal. It is probably fair to call Singler insurance at this point.

My overall feeling, combined with last night's dealing of Gordon, is that the Pistons are going to try and get a second first round pick. I don't know if that means them moving down from 9 AND moving up from the upper-second round, or if it means we get to keep our current pick, but I really feel Dumars is putting a lot of emphasis into this draft and off-season.

I guess I don't understand the issue with Jerebko. He's not particularly old or expensive and seems like a good fit on the team going forward. Why would we trade him and what are we going to get for him that will provide more value than he does? He's the only SF on our roster that is worth keeping going forward? Is his contract up soon?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I should add, obviously the initial signings of CV and Gordon were foolish and led to this trade, but based on the past 3 years, this trade was much better than doing nothing but waiting for 2 more years. This gives the potential for significant progress in the 2013-14 season where waiting would have slowed that another year.

At the end of the day we traded a 1st round pick to get salary relief in the future. That's not exactly something to be excited about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
At the end of the day we traded a 1st round pick to get salary relief in the future. That's not exactly something to be excited about.

First of all, we traded a future first round pick to get salary relief now and in the future. It doesn't make me excited, but much better than paying someone who doesn't fit an extra $14-15 million over the next 2 seasons. It gives us cap flexibility a year earlier. If it enables us to trade either Maggette or Prince for a future pick it is even better. It stinks that we got to this place with the initial signings, but I am glad Dumars made this trade rather than passing on it and hanging on to Gordon and the future pick.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
First of all, we traded a future first round pick to get salary relief now and in the future. It doesn't make me excited, but much better than paying someone who doesn't fit an extra $14-15 million over the next 2 seasons. It gives us cap flexibility a year earlier. If it enables us to trade either Maggette or Prince for a future pick it is even better. It stinks that we got to this place with the initial signings, but I am glad Dumars made this trade rather than passing on it and hanging on to Gordon and the future pick.

I'm not saying it's a bad deal. We had to do it. But we had to do it because we are in a terrible position and making the move doesn't put us in a good position or anything, it just helps us get out from under the terrible position we were in. Was it a necessary move? Almost certainly but, to me, it's just another reminder of the shape we are in right now.

I don't see how we can trade Maggette for a pick when the Bobcats had to take on Gordon for us to give them a first round pick for Maggette.

Last of all, I don't think trading a past first round pick is possible so obviously we traded a future first round pick.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm not saying it's a bad deal. We had to do it. But we had to do it because we are in a terrible position and making the move doesn't put us in a good position or anything, it just helps us get out from under the terrible position we were in. Was it a necessary move? Almost certainly but, to me, it's just another reminder of the shape we are in right now.

I don't see how we can trade Maggette for a pick when the Bobcats had to take on Gordon for us to give them a first round pick for Maggette.

I think the Bobcats were looking for outside shooting and a legitimate NBA player - which Gordon can be. I don't know that they had to take him on to get a first for Maggette. This way they got both the first and filled one of many needs. Saying that, I do think it would be hard to trade Maggette by himself for a pick as a team would have to both want him and have approx $10 mil in cap room or trade exception. A contract of some sort would likely have to come back. I would much rather trade Prince, and keep Maggette for the season, but Maggette's large expiring contract could be valuable in another trade.

Edited to change Gordon from a legitimate starter to legitimate player.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Regardless of the clearer direction we now have, I'm not getting too excited about anything yet. Joe D has already shown that he can have a ton of money to spend and have it go to waste. I'll admit it looks better than it has in the past couple years, but at the same time, that's not really saying much....

I agree with this.

The best players are not going to want to play in Detroit...they will go to Boston or Chicago or New York or Dallas. That means we will probably be overpaying for guys like Gordon and CV again. We really need Monroe and Knight to have big years next year to try and convince the better free agents Detroit would be a good destination to go to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this deal makes the Prince signing look even worse...I would love to unload his contract (or even Stuckey's) before next offseason now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Following on the last posters line of thinking, my thoughts were when I heard this trade that Dumars doesn't like any of the bigs, and is going to go after Waiters, he did it for draft options.

My second thought was that we were going to ship out Prince to try to move up in the draft to go after Drummond or someone, hopefully dump Daye as well, I do not believe there is anyway to get rid of Villenueva.

Edit: Another conspiracy theory I heard is that Dumars is trying to keep some of the teams in front of them 6/7/8 from trading down to get the guy they want, since they were thinking the Pistons were locked in to a big man, a move to keep Drummond in play to 9.

Edited by DrWho17

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think this deal makes the Prince signing look even worse...I would love to unload his contract (or even Stuckey's) before next offseason now.

I never understood the Prince signing. For what Stuckey signed for, I am ok with him as either the starting 2 or 1st guy off the bench.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...