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Delmon Young arrested for fighting in NYC

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Indeed, so it is a shame that the society as a whole does little to insure that young black people who wish to can grow up in an environment free of "hoodlumism". And who has run the larger society that has allowed the inner city pathologies to fester over the last 50 yrs? As a society as a whole, we are still screwing blacks and other minorities who want to play by the rules in this country even today. Just because Sowell got his.....

I think these days we're mostly screwing poor people, and they could in theory be of any race or gender! Now if that isn't progress I don't know what is, I'm personally not going to feel guilty or accept blame for any acts I haven't done just because I happen to be white, how is that any different than having an opinion about someone just because they're black?

At the same time, that doesn't mean you can ignore that plenty of people out there are still racist or suffering from the effects of racial discrimination. You can be a good person who fights against those things without 'taking it on the jaw' yourself as it was put in this thread.

Ahem, as far as the actual baseball discussion goes, Abreu is completely useless defensively, and his bat is declining fast, I'd pass.

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There's no easy solutions for the inner city mess, because you can't dictate where people live without resorting to truly Draconian measures like 100% gas taxes, etc.

Or the reservation system ... oh wait, you totally can dictate where people live. Just make sure that their way of life isn't welcome in the broader society, or that they can't afford to leave their current situation, and the suburbs will remain safe for the children.

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Those who lost out on a job or acceptance to U-M due to affirmative action beg to differ.

Well of course affirmative action is not a perfect system, but the idea of trying to give certain minorities a single one-up when most white males have been given a dozen without even recognizing them as advantages* isn't a bad one.

* As a white male, you can be pretty certain that you will never be followed around by security in a store because of the color of your skin. As a white male, you can be pretty certain that you will never be asked to speak for white people as a whole. Etc, etc, etc.

It's not guilt either. Like I said, I don't feel guilty about slavery or the reservations because they weren't my ideas. But the people who were victims there are still paying for it, and if you don't believe me I suggest you go to the Woodlawn neighborhood in Chicago or come out here to the Blackfeet rez and tell me that those people are born with the same set of advantages that most of us enjoy without recognizing them as advantages.

The same thing is done to poor whites, too, so this isn't strictly racial, if that makes you feel any better.

EDIT - The whole point I'm driving at is that people in general ought to look at what they have and separate what they've earned from what was given to them. I was born in a household that had food on the table, where I was taught to read at a young age, with genes good enough to enable me to cultivate some intelligence (though no doubt some of you are questioning that), without health issues, without ever having to wonder who my parents are, without the history of my culture on the nation's back burner, without having a month set aside for my ancestors' culture to show up in the textbooks, etc, etc, etc. I had very little to do with any of that.

One likes to believe in the freedom that we all have but what I'm saying is that we're not on level ground to start, and that when people point that out there is no need to either get offended or feel guilty, just acknowledge that not every advantage you or others enjoy was earned, and every disadvantage that others or you suffer through was earned either.

Edited by Eric Cioe

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Or the reservation system ... oh wait, you totally can dictate where people live. Just make sure that their way of life isn't welcome in the broader society, or that they can't afford to leave their current situation, and the suburbs will remain safe for the children.

The US Government has done plenty of bad things, I still fail to see how this makes me, or even white people in general responsible. I'm white, I was raised in poverty, my life has been pretty terrible as a general rule. In my age group, women are paid more than men. Does this give me the right to be angry at all white people and women myself? I don't think so.

If you're a 70 year old black man, I wouldn't blame you at all for being angry as hell, but given that the entire basis for this discussion, is a young, millionaire, black man, it's a struggle for me to understand where his burning rage at white beggars would come from.

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...given that the entire basis for this discussion, is a young, millionaire, black man, it's a struggle for me to understand where his burning rage at white beggars would come from.

To be clear, the topic moved into general issues on why the law might be what it is. Delmon AFAIK is a child of the middle class or better and certainly has probably lived a life of privilege from the time he showed he could bop a baseball - no sympathy for Delmon on an individual case level on my part at least at all.

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The US Government has done plenty of bad things, I still fail to see how this makes me, or even white people in general responsible.

Not responsible, just enjoying an advantage that wasn't earned, unless you count murdering babies and making their religion illegal earning something.

And like I said, it's not strictly racial at all. In fact I think with the culture of the dollar the way it is now that money has a whole lot more to do with it than skin color.

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How much pain and suffering at the hands of another race have white people suffered. I'll answer it for you. None.

Oh really? talk to Reginald Denny.........

Just because something has been one-sided, it doesn't make it right to try and make up for it.

I was at a music conference in New York and leaving a concert there were black Muslims screaming at us and calling us oppressors. I approached one of them (which didn't make my friends happy) and told him my dad was from Belfast, he never oppressed anyone in his life and that the man accusing me of oppression was wearing a suit that cost more than my entire wardrobe. I thought he was gonna hit me. He was a racist. He knew NOTHING about me but then screams about me and then pretty much threatens me when I call him on his ********. Were black recording artists ripped off by whites in the music business? Yep, and a lot of white artists were ripped off too and that continues today.

Racism is everywhere, you can't deny it. Every adult in this country (and probably in the world) has a degree of racism in them - and if you deny this you are a liar. But we don't have to let it take control and get loud and get nasty in the degree that DY did, allegedly, on Thursday night. Do I think DY is a stone-cold overt racist? No, I don't, I think he has an anger-control issue and that is why he went nuts the way he did - he found a signpost on a guy (his yarmulke) and used that to go off and humiliate him. I had someone go off on me at a Red Wings game because I am fat. He was an Avalanche fan - going off on my weight was easy pickens........

In your life if you say you didn't think certain ugly thoughts based on someone's race/religion/looks without getting to know them - then you are a very special human being. But most of us have enough self control to repress those thoughts and to not act out like a complete friggin idiot like Delmon did.

We learned a few things here.

1 - Delmon didn't learn a thing from his 50 game suspension

2. Delmon cost himself a shipload of money because his next contract may have just been cut in half from this latest incident.

3 - Andy Dirks is a far better left fielder than Delmon

4 - Some guys don't give a crap about anyone but themselves.

Wonder why Minnesota got rid of him so cheaply? He is stupid, he is selfish, he is not committed to making this team better.

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Not responsible, just enjoying an advantage that wasn't earned, unless you count murdering babies and making their religion illegal earning something.

And like I said, it's not strictly racial at all. In fact I think with the culture of the dollar the way it is now that money has a whole lot more to do with it than skin color.

And what advantage have I gained? The right to work in retail and perhaps by the time I'm 30 have paid my own way through college and maybe just maybe have a life that doesn't make me want to blow my brains out on a regular basis? Woo, woo, how fortunate I am to have been born white in the year 1986.

Eventually you can't blame or credit the past for things, pretty much everyone on earth lives in land that has been taken in war time and time again, pretty much everyone on earth has ancestors who killed or raped or pillaged. That doesn't make them any less or any more, and it doesn't change the ancestors of the victims of it either. I'm sure my life would have been even crappier if I was born even poorer in inner city Detroit, and it still would have been my responsibility to make the best of it.

Of course everyone has natural advantages, I'm lucky I wasn't born with horrifying genetic diseases, or in sub-saharan africa, or perhaps in afghanistan, but so what? That's life, that's how it works. All we can do is do the best we can to make the world as fair as possible for everyone.

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I hate amputees.

Hobbling around like they own the world, or high threeing people like they have some god-given right!

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Oh really? talk to Reginald Denny.........

Just because something has been one-sided, it doesn't make it right to try and make up for it.

I was at a music conference in New York and leaving a concert there were black Muslims screaming at us and calling us oppressors. I approached one of them (which didn't make my friends happy) and told him my dad was from Belfast, he never oppressed anyone in his life and that the man accusing me of oppression was wearing a suit that cost more than my entire wardrobe. I thought he was gonna hit me. He was a racist. He knew NOTHING about me but then screams about me and then pretty much threatens me when I call him on his ********. Were black recording artists ripped off by whites in the music business? Yep, and a lot of white artists were ripped off too and that continues today.

Racism is everywhere, you can't deny it. Every adult in this country (and probably in the world) has a degree of racism in them - and if you deny this you are a liar. But we don't have to let it take control and get loud and get nasty in the degree that DY did, allegedly, on Thursday night. Do I think DY is a stone-cold overt racist? No, I don't, I think he has an anger-control issue and that is why he went nuts the way he did - he found a signpost on a guy (his yarmulke) and used that to go off and humiliate him. I had someone go off on me at a Red Wings game because I am fat. He was an Avalanche fan - going off on my weight was easy pickens........

In your life if you say you didn't think certain ugly thoughts based on someone's race/religion/looks without getting to know them - then you are a very special human being. But most of us have enough self control to repress those thoughts and to not act out like a complete friggin idiot like Delmon did.

We learned a few things here.

1 - Delmon didn't learn a thing from his 50 game suspension

2. Delmon cost himself a shipload of money because his next contract may have just been cut in half from this latest incident.

3 - Andy Dirks is a far better left fielder than Delmon

4 - Some guys don't give a crap about anyone but themselves.

Wonder why Minnesota got rid of him so cheaply? He is stupid, he is selfish, he is not committed to making this team better.

100% agree

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What upsets me that the mere act of rooting for the tigers now makes us anti-semites. We are worse than Hitler. ******

*****did that kill this thread?

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Well of course affirmative action is not a perfect system, but the idea of trying to give certain minorities a single one-up when most white males have been given a dozen without even recognizing them as advantages* isn't a bad one.

* As a white male, you can be pretty certain that you will never be followed around by security in a store because of the color of your skin. As a white male, you can be pretty certain that you will never be asked to speak for white people as a whole. Etc, etc, etc.

It's not guilt either. Like I said, I don't feel guilty about slavery or the reservations because they weren't my ideas. But the people who were victims there are still paying for it, and if you don't believe me I suggest you go to the Woodlawn neighborhood in Chicago or come out here to the Blackfeet rez and tell me that those people are born with the same set of advantages that most of us enjoy without recognizing them as advantages.

The same thing is done to poor whites, too, so this isn't strictly racial, if that makes you feel any better.

There was a time that Italians, Jews and Roman Catholics were not allowed, or if so, in only small numbers, to Ivy League schools. That was wrong, they were qualified in every way, except by religion or ethnicity. Many of these applicants descended from or were not that far removed from the squalid tenements of New York City. Their academic achievements were without the advantage of money, superior primary educational opportunities or federal government intervention. And the fix was not to reduce the admission standards in the name of diversity or to try to right the wrongs to the generations before them by expecting less. In my mind, this is only perpetuating the wrongs done to black Americans.

There is a formula of integration that has worked for generations in this country. It is far from pure, history is filled with heartbreaking and angering incidents to the contrary but there still is a formula for success that has nothing to do with benevolence, guilt or condescending social engineering experiements. We could learn a lot from baseball.

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Oh really? talk to Reginald Denny.........

And 60 yrs after Brown v Board I can go into a tony downtown Detroit Bisto and all the patrons and waiters are white and all the bus boys are black - and I just want to throw-up. The rest is all talk. That is reality.

Edited by Gehringer_2

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Tampa and the Twins both gave up on Delmon and we should also for the same reason..his baseball skills are limited and certainly not sufficient enough to deal with the BS.

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I hate amputees.

Hobbling around like they own the world, or high threeing people like they have some god-given right!

Better than being an anti-dentite. Next thing ya know you'll be saying they should have their own schools!

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Well of course affirmative action is not a perfect system, but the idea of trying to give certain minorities a single one-up when most white males have been given a dozen without even recognizing them as advantages* isn't a bad one.

* As a white male, you can be pretty certain that you will never be followed around by security in a store because of the color of your skin. As a white male, you can be pretty certain that you will never be asked to speak for white people as a whole. Etc, etc, etc.

It's not guilt either. Like I said, I don't feel guilty about slavery or the reservations because they weren't my ideas. But the people who were victims there are still paying for it, and if you don't believe me I suggest you go to the Woodlawn neighborhood in Chicago or come out here to the Blackfeet rez and tell me that those people are born with the same set of advantages that most of us enjoy without recognizing them as advantages.

The same thing is done to poor whites, too, so this isn't strictly racial, if that makes you feel any better.

EDIT - The whole point I'm driving at is that people in general ought to look at what they have and separate what they've earned from what was given to them. I was born in a household that had food on the table, where I was taught to read at a young age, with genes good enough to enable me to cultivate some intelligence (though no doubt some of you are questioning that), without health issues, without ever having to wonder who my parents are, without the history of my culture on the nation's back burner, without having a month set aside for my ancestors' culture to show up in the textbooks, etc, etc, etc. I had very little to do with any of that.

One likes to believe in the freedom that we all have but what I'm saying is that we're not on level ground to start, and that when people point that out there is no need to either get offended or feel guilty, just acknowledge that not every advantage you or others enjoy was earned, and every disadvantage that others or you suffer through was earned either.

Another perfect post.

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Ridiculous IMO. When I've owned slaves or held anyone back, then I'll take one on the jaw. There comes a point where people need to quit ripping the scab off the wound. Everyone of intelligence knows about and acknowledges the atrocities of previous generations.

Sooner or later people need to quit punishing the sons for the sins of the fathers.

You don't have to feel punished or guilty when people vent about the past. It's natural for them to be angry, especially if the effects are still affecting their people. No one is asking you to take it personally.

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And 60 yrs after Brown v Board I can go into a tony downtown Detroit Bisto and all the patrons and waiters are white and all the bus boys are black - and I just want to throw-up. The rest is all talk. That is reality.

That still didn't give a mob the right to pull a guy out of his truck and beat him to within an inch of his death - only because he was white. It works both ways - there are no excuses for it.

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That still didn't give a mob the right to pull a guy out of his truck and beat him to within an inch of his death - only because he was white. It works both ways - there are no excuses for it.

:dead::dead::dead:

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That still didn't give a mob the right to pull a guy out of his truck and beat him to within an inch of his death - only because he was white. It works both ways - there are no excuses for it.

No one thinks anyone has this right, nor is there an excuse for this. No reasonable person, at least.

But it's not an even-sided "both sides are the same, therefore oppression of minorities isn't an issue at all" kind of thing. Yeah, a few black people might be racist, but the majority of them don't have the power to repress anyone.

I'll agree with what others have said, though. Today, it's mostly a class thing, not a racial thing. There's still more white people in poverty in this country than black people. The ratios aren't the same, but, especially if you live in the South, you'll find out that our economy these days is an equal opportunity ****ing.

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No one is asking you to take it personally.

That's actually not true. Eric said this:

you have to allow them to be mad about it and take in on the jaw.

And you agreed with it calling it an "Extremely good post".

Being angry about the past bares no fruit. Using the past to make yourself a better person bares tons of fruit. Ripping scabs off wounds repeatedly will never allow the wound to heal.

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That still didn't give a mob the right to pull a guy out of his truck and beat him to within an inch of his death - only because he was white. It works both ways - there are no excuses for it.

Is this really an argument you want to get into? You know the lines have all been drawn and there are no wins on points in these.

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That's actually not true. Eric said this:

And you agreed with it calling it an "Extremely good post".

Being angry about the past bares no fruit. Using the past to make yourself a better person bares tons of fruit. Ripping scabs off wounds repeatedly will never allow the wound to heal.

That depends on what you mean by "take one on the jaw," I guess. I saw that as a figure of speech meaning just take it like a man and brush it off.

As far as how other people want to motivate themselves, that's their business. I agree with you that dwelling in the past isn't going to help them. The problem is, black people's problems (and Native American problems, for that matter) are not just in the past. Just because there is very little overt legalized discrimination these days doesn't mean our economic system doesn't still create a large barrier to success. Like others have said, it's a class thing more than a race thing these days. But there's a lot of illegitimate reasons why blacks are disproportionately part of one economic class. The heritablity, or lack thereof, of wealth and social status is a huge factor.

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The heritablity, or lack thereof, of wealth and social status is a huge factor.

You can argue that this even becomes part of the health care debate as well. In this country today if you are middle class or lower and you get sick or end up needing long term care before you die, the system is set up to drain every dollar of possible legacy you can leave your children the help them or your grandchildren get a leg up. Just one more way we are building differential impediments to mobility between the top and bottom instead of removing them.

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