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weave vs. higgy

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I'd sooner trade Higgy than Weaver, but Steinbrenner wants Weaver - and rightfully so. I like this guy Johnson, so Weaver for Johnson and the Yanks kick in some more sweetness.....say...

Ventura and Stanton.

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The Boss probably wants Weaver to keep Boston from getting him. Wasn't there a Red Sox advanced scout watching him in Atlanta? The Freep reported that on Weds.

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Steinbrenner doesn't need to stop the Sox from trading for Weaver -- the weak Boston farm system assures that Weaver won't be pitching in Fenway anytime soon.

There was a BoSox official watching on Tuesday, but I can't see a match with them.

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I get the feeling that the Yankees aren't going to trade their starting 3B, who they have no capable replacement for.

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What do we do with Young if we get Johnson? I see 1B and DH as not really being two needs that we have and Johnson was brutal in LF during limited stints out there during interleague play.

Why would we trade Higgy for Ventura. Ventura is older and neither are going to be here when we start to climb but Higgy has a better chance of it.

I still hope that DD doesn't trade Weaver unless its obviously lopsided. We've been waiting for the guy to build our staff around, for many years it was supposed to be Thompson, but now it seems like we finally have him. He's young, improving, signed and competitive.

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I don't know about our so called strength at Dh and 1B. As far as I can tell we have Young and Simon, both of whom are below average offensively for both positions (though Young might be average). And in the minors we have Munson, who is well below average at this point. We could certainly put together a decent platoon at 1B or DH, but we aren't deep or strong at the position.

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Silver- I would agree that organizationally we aren't deep at 1B. Honestly DH is not a position I want to be deep at, it would mean we would have a lot of unathletic/poor fielding decent hitters, they seem to be easy enough to come by. There are a few Edgars out there but for the most part DHs are older players past their prime or fat 1B with poor gloves.

I guess what my point was in the prior post was that I don't see Johnson being much of an upgrade at 1B/DH.

AB HR RBI OBP SLG AVG OPS

Young 162 5 23 .345 .475 .302 .820

Simon 240 10 42 .296 .442 .279 .738

Johnson 219 11 39 .322 .434 .242 .756

As far as age goes, Young is 29, Simon 27 and Johnson is 24. So an argument could be made that Johnson will continue to improve. But I would also argue that his stats are helped by the lineup he is in and that he is not counted on to lead like he would be in Detroit.

As for depth, I would think that it would be better to have the depth staggered througout the organization as opposed to having three comparable players all at the major league level. I don't see any of these three accepting an assignment to Toledo or do I think it would help their game at this point.

I would hope a trade involving Weaver would garner a player that would fill a need that is much more glaring than 1B/DH or else acquire us a potential star. Maybe that's what you see in Johnson, I personally don't.

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I appreciate what Simon has done for the Tigers this season, but Johnson is already a better player and should continue to improve. Meanwhile, Simon has probably reached (or nearly reached) his plateau as a hitter. Johnson is also an excellent defensive 1B.

He would be the first guy I asked for in any significant trade with the Yankees.

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Half a season may not be a long enough term for comparison. But Johnson's FLD% is .996 in 232 innings at 1B while Simon's is .992 in 415 innings ( the same as Giambi's who is starting over Johnson). No, don't jump on me I'm not comparing Simon to J.Giambi just stating that a difference of .004 in FLD% is not substantial. I realize that Johnson was named the best defensive 1B in the International League last year, but his stats in half a year in bigs is not significantly better than Simon's.

My main point in all this is that I don't think Johnson is a substantial upgrade and we have bigger needs; OF, closer, starters, 3B, 2B. I hope we don't trade Weaver at all actually.

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Johnson is a better hitter now, while not performing at his best, than Simon is. He's three years younger and three years away from his peak. And FPCT is basically useless (not that I am saying Johnson is a better defender than Simon, I'm just saying FPCT doesn't tell us anything regarding the issue.)

Johnson is probably as good a hitter as Young right now (though he hasn't performed as such yet). However he's five years younger than Young, which is a huge difference.

What player would you view as a potential star if you don't see Johnson as one? If you only look at major league stats, then whoever we get will have to already be a star. If you look at minor league stats, and you want someone who does better than .400/.500, you're going to be looking for a long time. Do you mean you want someone who is already a star for Weaver?

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I think we have more glaring holes than first base/dh and Weaver, if traded at all, should garner us more than our third first baseman/dh.

I hesitate to ask this question fearing a lecture in sabermathematics, but what stat do you suppose we use to measure fielding prowess?

Johnson is a better hitter now, while not performing at his best, than Simon is

Why is he not performing at his best? He's not counted on to carry the team in NY the way he would be here.

Johnson is probably as good a hitter as Young right now (though he hasn't performed as such yet).

Oh, come on for someone who preaches statistics you seem to have no problem disregarding them when you need to. None of us can predict where a players future will go, so I was trying to debate on your own hallowed turf of stats and you throw this at me.

I'm still curious about your statement about depth. How does acquiring another 1B/dh at the major league level help us in regards to depth? Unless your going to then trade one. Wouldn't it be better to fill a more obvious need and get a A or AA 1B thrown in, that would enhance organizational depth.

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I think Q was saying that we have guys at first base and DH,but they arn't very good when compared to their counterparts around the league.If Johnson is aquired he plays first and Young moves to DH full time as he isn't much of a fielder no matter where you put him.Simon is probably traded in this scenario as he really is not the kind of player who given his free swinging ways is someone who will hit consistently.

Depth anyway at first base should never be a problem,as anyone on the team right now could likely play a passable first in a pinch.If we aquire Johnson it will be because we think he can put up much better offensive numbers than anyone we can come up with currently.At 24,he certainly has plenty of upside.

That being said,I wouldn't settle for ONLY Johnson in any trade for Weaver.The other one or hopefully two guys could be used to fill the other areas of need.With the trade of Lombard and good play of Fick and Torres coming on fast,not to mention the heavy emphasis on outfield Dom placed in the draft this year,I'd guess any trade help will come in the infield.

It will be interesting to see where he does try to shore up first.Santiago looks like a keeper at short,while second looks to have Infante and maybe Woods as well as Jackson fighting for that spot.Third is very weak,but Hannahan barring injury could be a solid player there after next season.More depth would be a likely target there.Starting pitching is coming around nicely,though Weaver would leave a big hole.But Maroth,Redman,and Bernero are all looking solid right now,and you have hopefully a rested Baugh and a year wiser Cornejo to fill in the slack next year.Moehler is looking to come back into the rotation in about a week.He is pitching well at Toledo and his coming back strong will be huge.

I think any trade if it involves Johnson will also try to target third base help and starting pitching.

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I think any trade if it involves Johnson will also try to target third base help and starting pitching.

Let me see if I've got this right.

Nick Johnson, plus two other players .... third base help, and starting pitching.

For Weaver.

.... I don't know what you're smoking, but pass it on down, cedar.

;)

I wouldn't give you NJ for Weaver straight up. Just my opinion.

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I wouldn't give you NJ for Weaver straight up.
We wouldn't take NJ for a dead sewer rat and a bent bottle cap. Leave New Jersey where it is, thank you. With the prevailing winds blowing west-to-east, we prefer it that way.

What's that? Oh! You were talking about Nick Johnson! Oh, well. That's a different bag o' cats then.

Never mind.

:D

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... So that I can poke your eyes out, and slap some sense into ya.

Nah, you're past redemption.

All those damn years stuck in Ohio will do that to you.

( ..oops! almost forgot my freakin' smilie. ha. :D )

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I wouldn't give you NJ for Weaver straight up. Just my opinion.

That is an insult to Weaver. The guy will win a Cy Young in the next few years. Nick Johnson, although he's highly hyped, hasn't shown that he'd win the batting title or anything like that.

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Well, not my intent to insult Weaver.

I, however, think higher of NJ and his potential, and think the Yankees need him more than the pitching that Weaver could provide.

(But that's because I don[t think the Yankees pitching is in danger... I think they're ok with Lilly there.)

It was not meant to be a knock on Weaver .... he's certainly proved he's the real deal.

I just don't see him worth three players....

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You don't see him worth Johnson either?

NYY already have a long term productive 1B in Giambi and they're paying him a lot more and Johnson has proven that he's no LFer either.

Johnson will probably be moved because the Yanks need to fill their weak spots (corner OF).

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I just believe what I am hearing from the Yankee brass.

Their take on it is that NJ is the firstbaseman in about a year, Giambi moving to DH.

Entirely possible that this will not come to pass if the Yankees feel they have a big hole somewhere..... they could offer up NJ as trade, but I just am not seeing it.

I think they mean to keep Nick Johnson.

That's why I don't see them offering him in a trade right now.

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Giambi will move to 1B when he wants to, not when the Yankees want him to (though the two things could coincide).

I wouldn't take Johnson for Weaver straight up either. But any deal with the Yankees would have to include him, and probably Thames. They don't really have any infield help (in the high minors) and Claussen going down with an injury limits their trade possibilities.

And no I don't think Henson is a real good prospect right now, and even if I did, his contract is to much to take on for a rebuilding team.

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Two things.

1.) Sue, I think you accused us of overestimating Weaver's worth. I think you're doing the same with Johnson. Weaver for Johnson type trades happen at trading deadlines all the time. They're both good young, high upside players.

2.) Just because we have a lot of players that can play 1st/DH doesn't mean they're any good. Nick Johnson is better than anything we have.

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Originally posted by OldTimey

Two things.

1.) Sue, I think you accused us of overestimating Weaver's worth. I think you're doing the same with Johnson. Weaver for Johnson type trades happen at trading deadlines all the time. They're both good young, high upside players.

2.) Just because we have a lot of players that can play 1st/DH doesn't mean they're any good. Nick Johnson is better than anything we have.

OldTimey - I understand what you're saying ( in #1 ), but view it a little differently. When I talk about Johnson's worth, I am basically viewing it as it pertains to this particular Yankee team. I think he's got a high worth TO THEM.

It's not that I don't think he's on a par (worth-wise) to Weaver. I just think the Yankees have less of a need for pitching than they do for a future firstbaseman.

I don't know if I'm explaining myself well.

I did tend to laugh at the offered trade, though, because I also saw elsewhere that maybe the Tigers would accept Soriano and Ventura ( and someone else) for Weaver.....

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If the Tigers are going to trade away players, they should be looking for the type of players to start building a winning team. Those types of players are usually pitchers in the minors or in their first few years who are budding all-stars. Young talented arms is what every team wants. Pitching wins and that is where the Tigers should start.

Maybe in exchange for Jeff Weaver, the Tigers could get a developing player (a pitcher), someone early in their career who has a lot of potential, who will be valued for many years.

Maybe the Tigers could trade for Jeff Weaver.

I don't understand what we could realistically get now, that would be as good as Jeff Weaver 4 years from now.

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Good pitching is a key to winning. But so is good offense. You must score runs to win. Right now we're actually getting some darn good pitching and no offense. Look at our record.

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Hobbs, wow first post and already you're making more sense than half the people around here (no people in particular). And actually all you really have to do to make sense is agree with me ;)

I have not heard any trade proposals, imaginary or not, for Weaver that make any sense at all. We'd have to come out so far ahead in the deal that it can't possibly happen.

Sue, I agree the idea of Soriano and Ventura was a ridiculous one, but you know what its not much less than what I'd want for the guy. That's why I think (hope) a deal is so unlikely. Pitching, young pitching is such a premium.

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