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Ben Zobrist and Alex Avila have a higher WAR than Granderson according to baseball-reference.com

Adrian Gonzalez has two teammates with a higher WAR per the same source.

FWIW.

WAR doesn't get an MVP ballot.

For what it's worth.

:wink:

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By going to a literal definition of the word valuable wouldn't you have to consider salary?

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I'd vote for Bautista. The writers will probably vote for Gonzalez or Granderson. Pedroia and Ellsbury will get a lot of votes too. If I was going to push a Tiger for the award, it would be Avila. He'd need an awesome September for me to seriously consider him for MVP though. I wouldn't give the award to Verlander, because the pitchers have their own award.

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By going to a literal definition of the word valuable wouldn't you have to consider salary?

That's a good question, but for a one year award, I would say no. Looking back on the season, I'm only interested in a player's performance on the field. The value of a player's salary is too dependent on things fans don't know about and sometimes go beyond what happens on the field. In some cases, it might look like a player is making too much money for his performance, but maybe he generates money in other ways.

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I'd vote for Bautista. The writers will probably vote for Gonzalez or Granderson. Pedroia and Ellsbury will get a lot of votes too. If I was going to push a Tiger for the award, it would be Avila. He'd need an awesome September for me to seriously consider him for MVP though. I wouldn't give the award to Verlander, because the pitchers have their own award.

Just because they have their own award shouldn't disqualify him from the other. Verlander is exactly what an MVP is, without this a sub .500 ball club, with him we will very likely be a division winner.

As it stands, Verlander should be the MVP.

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Just because they have their own award shouldn't disqualify him from the other. Verlander is exactly what an MVP is, without this a sub .500 ball club, with him we will very likely be a division winner.

As it stands, Verlander should be the MVP.

The MVP came first. Once the Cy Young Award came along, I think that changed the purpose of the MVP Award even though the name stayed the same. There are now two big awards - MVP and Cy Young. One is for pitchers, so the other one should be for hitters. Why have a separate Cy Young Award if the pitcher can be an MVP? If they had a separate award for hitters as well, then I would say either a pitcher or hitter could be MVP. They have Silver Slugger Awards but nobody gives a crap about those.

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Especially if there were no hitters out there really doing much. If that happened I could see giving it to JV. Otherwise I agree, leave MVP for the hitters since they don't have their own exclusive Big Award. (Isn't there a Hank Aaron award or something?)

I think we over think these awards sometimes. Take 1987. I know statistically Boggs may have had a better year than Tram or Bell but for God's sake, we had a thrilling down to the wire pennant race. It should have went to Tram simply to honor him and the team for their accomplishment. It's not like he was crap that year.

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WAR doesn't get an MVP ballot.

For what it's worth.

:wink:

No, but writers have gotten better about picking the right guy for Cy Young awards recently, which suggests (to me, at least) they are, as a group, getting better about giving that award to the most deserving, so it stands to reason they are probably looking a little deeper for MVP than used to be the case as well.

Also, the purpose of the information I provided was simply to offer a valid counter-argument that I think has rarely been offered. Namely Adrian Gonzalez may not even be the most valuable Red Sox player, and Granderson's value might not be greater than Avila's or Zobrist's, let alone Gonzalez and his two teammates, Bautista, Verlander, Weaver. That isn't to say I don't think neither won't be voted MVP - heck - I am sure both will receive more consideration than similarly (or more) deserving contemporaries. I simply think there are some more deserving candidates that haven't received much mention in the media, and if that isn't a good enough reason to post here, apologies.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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I think if a pitcher has a historically great year (e.g. a Triple Crown winner who also logs the most innings), then yeah, I think he should absolutely receive serious consideration for the MVP.

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It's Adrian Gonzalez 1, Granderson 2, and Verlander 3 right now. With a month to play.....Gonzalez and Granderson would have to fall off for Verlander to sniff it.

There is little if any chance either wins the MVP IMO. Granderson's D has slipped this year, at least statistically and Gonzo is a 1B. That's not a huge issue, but it is when there are so many guys performing similar or better. Bautista,Pedroia and Ellsbury are in front of him. Maybe Granderson and Verlander as well.

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MVP is not a hitters award, its the most valuable player. I don't see how Verlander isn't in contention for such an award. I can't see how someone is clearly more valuable than him. Sure, he goes one in five days, but his one day is more impactful, good or bad, than any day a hitter can have.

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I'd vote for Bautista. The writers will probably vote for Gonzalez or Granderson. Pedroia and Ellsbury will get a lot of votes too. If I was going to push a Tiger for the award, it would be Avila. He'd need an awesome September for me to seriously consider him for MVP though. I wouldn't give the award to Verlander, because the pitchers have their own award.

You wouldn't give the MVP award to him, and I probably wouldn't do it most years, but pitchers have won it before, so he's certainly legitimately in the discussion.

I'm thinking that Verlander has eight, maybe nine starts left. I think if he had a crazy historic finish and ran the table, ending up 26-5 or even 27-5, he'd be a shoo-in (OTBE), particularly if the Tigers won the division by, say, half a dozen or less. If he wins at least six of his remaining, landing at 24 or better, I think he's still in strong consideration depending how the other frontrunners end up. Twenty-three or less won't cut it, I don't think, because they might actually look at that as a weak finish (i.e., "only" five wins out of the last eight or nine starts).

(Of course I don't believe that the wins stat reflect are the be-all end-all of a pitcher's worth. I'm just trying to look at it from the writers' POV).

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No, but writers have gotten better about picking the right guy for Cy Young awards recently, which suggests (to me, at least) they are, as a group, getting better about giving that award to the most deserving, so it stands to reason they are probably looking a little deeper for MVP than used to be the case as well.

Also, the purpose of the information I provided was simply to offer a valid counter-argument that I think has rarely been offered. Namely Adrian Gonzalez may not even be the most valuable Red Sox player, and Granderson's value might not be greater than Avila's or Zobrist's, let alone Gonzalez and his two teammates, Bautista, Verlander, Weaver. That isn't to say I don't think neither won't be voted MVP - heck - I am sure both will receive more consideration than similarly (or more) deserving contemporaries. I simply think there are some more deserving candidates that haven't received much mention in the media, and if that isn't a good enough reason to post here, apologies.

True, writers have gotten better, and I think that's great. It's all part of the process of remaking the thinking toward the awards across the BBWAA as a whole, and while it's inexorably and inevitably changing, it is at a relatively glacial pace. We'll still continue to see guys with lots of runs scored and stolen bases and decent batting average but low OBP and slugging win MVPs over more deserving candidates, as well as guys who are the only pitchers with 20+ wins in their league winning Cy Youngs. This may largely go away, but not before additional voting traveties, with the attendant articles praising the selections as a triumph of majestic players with heart and will over uncoordinated nerds with computers.

And I think you know I wasn't seriously hammering you, don't you? I mean, there was a winky-wink included.

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Hitters have the Silver Slugger award for each position.

Pitchers have the Cy Young (typically to starters, but a reliever has won it) and relief pitchers have the Rolaids Reliever.

Both hitters and pitchers have Gold Glove awards for best offensive production. :wink:

I personally think the MVP award should include both hitters and pitchers. How you would quantify and objectively determine one player's worth to his franchise's winning to another's is where I struggle. WAR is an option, but could it be used in evaluating this?

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You wouldn't give the MVP award to him, and I probably wouldn't do it most years, but pitchers have won it before, so he's certainly legitimately in the discussion.

I'm thinking that Verlander has eight, maybe nine starts left. I think if he had a crazy historic finish and ran the table, ending up 26-5 or even 27-5, he'd be a shoo-in (OTBE), particularly if the Tigers won the division by, say, half a dozen or less. If he wins at least six of his remaining, landing at 24 or better, I think he's still in strong consideration depending how the other frontrunners end up. Twenty-three or less won't cut it, I don't think, because they might actually look at that as a weak finish (i.e., "only" five wins out of the last eight or nine starts).

(Of course I don't believe that the wins stat reflect are the be-all end-all of a pitcher's worth. I'm just trying to look at it from the writers' POV).

From the writers point of view, I can see some of them voting for Verlander. But I think there are enough hitters having good years, where he probably won't win it. Maybe in your scenario where he wins 26-27 games, they might select him. It would have to be something extraordinary like that coupled with the top hitters finishing poorly.

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Hitters have the Silver Slugger award for each position.

Pitchers have the Cy Young (typically to starters, but a reliever has won it) and relief pitchers have the Rolaids Reliever.

Both hitters and pitchers have Gold Glove awards for best offensive production. :wink:

I personally think the MVP award should include both hitters and pitchers. How you would quantify and objectively determine one player's worth to his franchise's winning to another's is where I struggle. WAR is an option, but could it be used in evaluating this?

Perhaps, since WAR seems to be calculated in such a way that pitcher leaders and position player leaders have similar numbers. Over the last fifteen years, for example, pitchers had the highest WAR in their leagues in 2010 (Ubaldo Jimenez, NL), 2009 (Zack Greinke, AL), 1999 (Randy Johnson, NL) and 1997 (Roger Clemens, AL). So while it doesn't happen often, looked at through the prism of this metric, pitchers can potentially deliver as many wins above a replacement level player in one-fifth the games as a position player can.

My question is whether anybody has done the spadework to determine whether a win above replacement at the position player level is the exact equivalent of that at the pitcher level? Have the measures been equalized or adjusted to reflect this? To me, the $64 question is, how much of a pitcher's WAR is independent of the defense of his teammates?

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If Verlander wins the Triple Crown (which I think he will), he has to be in the conversation. Without Verlander we would be screwed. We wouldn't even be in the division race. If I had to go with a positional player, I would pick either Pedroia or Ellsbury.

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The Red Sox guys kind of cancel each other out, IMO. We're not talking best player, we're talking most valuable. Take one out of that lineup and it's still a great lineup. Take Granderson out of the Yankees lineup and it's still a potent offensive attack. Take Bautista out of the Jays lineup and they're not over .500 anymore, in fact they'd probably be 15 games below. Take Verlander away from the Tigers and they're not leading the division, who knows where they'd be.

Why not vote for a pitcher? Verlander has faced 803 batters this year. Pedroia leads the AL with 576 PA.

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mr0zip0 posted updates on the JV Triple Crown thread for the most talked about MVP candidates in the AL (I don't think we've even discussed NL MVP candidates), and I'm starting to rethink who might win. The Blue Jays are not a terrible team, but without Bautista their offense would be no better than Baltimore's or any other cellar dwellers. What shocked me when I saw the stats posted was Bautista's BB:K ratio, which is 103:78. I didn't realize his batting eye had improved to that point; in years past, he always had a higher ratio of strikeouts to walks. Couple that with his overall production, I have to believe he is the front-runner, despite JV's tremendous pitching and the production of both Pedroia and Ellsbury.

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Bautista had slowed down post AS break, but has gotten hot again and will probably lock it up. However, many voters dont' agree with an MVP being on a 4th place team.

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Bautista had slowed down post AS break, but has gotten hot again and will probably lock it up. However, many voters dont' agree with an MVP being on a 4th place team.

He has a bad June. He's been over a 1.000 OPS for the last two months.

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I like Adrian Gonzalez way more than Jose Bautista for the MVP, if Verlander doesn't get it.

The Red Sox guys kind of cancel each other out, IMO.

What Red Sox team have you been watching?

Adrian Gonzalez has been the only constant the entire season.

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