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Leyland and Dombrowski extended

Do you like the Dombrowski/Leyland extension?  

104 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you like the Dombrowski/Leyland extension?

    • Yes, I like that both were extended
      38
    • No, I don't like that both we're extended
      20
    • I like the Dombrowski extension but not the Leyland extension
      43
    • I like the Leyland extension but not the Dombrowski extension
      3


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You don't change this level of job if you're in solid shape and move to an unknown performance entity. Just not a smart business move in my opinion. Am I disappointed there haven't been a couple more playoff appearances '07-'10? Absolutely however I think letting DD go decreases the chances of post season appearances in the future.

I think this is a strong point. I'm clearly more risky on this matter, but your point is well taken.

I'll also note that --- And I don't know who originally brought it up in this thread --- But whoever made the point about attendance and such made a very good one. DD-as-President has been a total win for the organization. As a fan that matters to me considerably less than DD-as-GM, although there are ways in which DD-as-President's success does still affect me positively. Most directly, the more people that show up to games, the more likely they'll have a payroll to put together a competitive team. I'm sure his success as President played a role in his being extended as well.

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I think you're 1 year too early. Wait until after the 2012 off-season, when Turner has established himself and Oliver/ Crosby may be ready to push Scherzer out the door... and then I'm thinking THAT would be the best time, from a competitive/ organizational viewpoint, to look at dealing him...

Just my 2 cents.

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The bottom line really IMO (anyway) the team we have sitting here today is here bcause of DD and in first place partly because of JL.

I guess the bottom line question is do you like this team?

If so how can you be upset by the deal?

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The Martinez deal is reminiscent of the Guillen deal in that we signed both guys with an injury history to a long-term contract around their 32nd birthday even though both would see their value diminish because they were changing positions. That contract gives me pause, but even with that, I do think our salary structure is the best its been in awhile here. Also, given that our rotation is locked up for so long and we have 5 or 6 (depending on Jackson's development) legit starters under the age of 30, we are built in a way that our team should not only stay competitive but also improve in the next few years. Even with the current state of the farm system, given our young established players on the major league club and our salary structure, this is best we've been set up under DD's watch. The 06 and 07 teams were light years better but we only had 2 solid position players (Inge and Granderson) under 30 on those teams and the makeup of that team didn't have a long shelf life. I think our current core has a chance to do some good things in the years to come and does have a long shelf life provided that our 2 stars stay healthy.

I agree with all of this.

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My issue with most of the criticism lies in the idea that failing to make the playoffs since 2006 is proof that DD has failed. I would love it if they had made the playoffs every year, but it just isn't that easy. Very few team's make the playoffs each year, so using that as a barometer of success is misguided, IMO. Maybe it's the optimist in me, but I find it far more telling that the team has had a chance to make the playoffs every year. It isn't as simple as just putting together a team and making it. It depends on how the players perform. It depends on how other team's perform. It depends on a bit of luck.

Sure, the easy response is to point at the payrolls and declare a lack of playoff appearances as "unacceptable.". But that doesn't tell the whole story. Sometimes contracts just don't work out. The bonderman contract became dead weight. Robertson's contract was a mistake, same with Willis, but was it really foreseeable that they would both completely lose all ability to pitch? I know you could say they were in decline, but I'm talking about their complete failure. I don't think anyone could predict that.

But the contracts happened. And DD worked with what he had and continued to put a team on the field that had a chance. It's not like twins or sox aren't trying to win also.

Look at the alternatives. The cubs made the playoffs around the same time as the tigers, and they have been one of the worst team's on baseball with little hope of turning it around in the near future. Look at the Astros. How about the Rockies? It isn't easy to keep a team competitive over a five year span. Yes, the Tigers sucked in 2008 due to terrible pitching that was unexpected, but they were right back in it in 2009.

If the tigers win game 163, is DD suddenly a better GM because the team made the playoffs? Obviously the answer to that strawman is no.

He built up the team. He tore it down and built it up again, and we are looking at a successful and stable team, likely near the top of the division, for the next couple years, at least.

With the teams and resources at his disposal, they should have made the playoffs at least one time since 2006. And no, winning game 163 would not make me think much more of him as a GM. But I would personally put a lot of the blame for even being in a game 163 situation at his doorstep. The failures of 2007 and 2008 pitching and bullpen wise are pretty inexcusable imo. And this led to a massive investment in "power arms" and relievers which has failed almost entirely. That's pretty much the biggest indictment of his time as GM to me.

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I disagree that he had extensive resources. Whatever resources he had were eaten up by the bonderman, Robertson, and Willis contracts, limiting his financial flexibility. That's what lead to having guys like Everett and laird on the team. Of course, those contracts are his responsibility. But I think it was highly unlikely for them to get almost zero value from. These are fair criticisms of his past actions, but these decisions were made in the winter of 2007. That's almost four years ago. I put a lot more stock in his recent moves when deciding whether an extension is a good move. Even with those dead weight contracts, he was able to put a competitive team on the field. I care about performance going forward, and his actions post 2008 were good, IMO.

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I disagree that he had extensive resources. Whatever resources he had were eaten up by the bonderman, Robertson, and Willis contracts, limiting his financial flexibility. That's what lead to having guys like Everett and laird on the team. Of course, those contracts are his responsibility. But I think it was highly unlikely for them to get almost zero value from. These are fair criticisms of his past actions, but these decisions were made in the winter of 2007. That's almost four years ago. I put a lot more stock in his recent moves when deciding whether an extension is a good move. Even with those dead weight contracts, he was able to put a competitive team on the field. I care about performance going forward, and his actions post 2008 were good, IMO.

Bonderman I think I would have done. I don't know how his wierd injury experience and apparent loss of passion for the game would have been predictable. OTOH, to me, Robertson probably was a predictable mistake, especially since the Tigers staff more than anyone else should have been tracking his loss of velocity and the attendent loss of effectiveness Nate was suffering. Willis - just a total brain freeze, or maybe owner intervention? Just dumb by any other name to extend a guy before you see him play for you - can't understand that one at all. But I can easily accept two screw-ups at the ML roster level weighed against the team he has put together now. I'm a little less sanguine that Avila and Boesh are not just a blind squirrel's nuts and that the minor league system may still not really be on a solid footing, but I just don't follow it closely enough to have a strong opinion.

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Carlos Silva signed for 40 million and Meche signed for 55 million, so at the time Robertson got pretty fair market value.

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Sure. But you must also be able to see the critique. He has a huge payroll to play with and he's wasted a big chunk of it year after year. With the money he has at his disposal, he should be able to field a better team. And many of those bad moves were terrible the day he made them.

Why? We compete for the division with 2 other similar payrolls and most of the top payrolls are in the AL in general. Unless you are Boston or NY(both of whom also squander plenty of money, its the hazard of guaranteed contracts combined with the desire to win now), being competitive every year is no small feat. I'd have liked to have made the playoffs at least one more time, but if they call a HBP on Inge in game 163 are JL and DD better at their jobs? These guys have completely turned around baseball in Detroit. Nobody cared about the Tigers for a good 10 years and now they are interesting and competitive. They win a reasonable amount(yes I'd like a little more) and they bring in fans to the stadium.

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I disagree that he had extensive resources. Whatever resources he had were eaten up by the bonderman, Robertson, and Willis contracts, limiting his financial flexibility. That's what lead to having guys like Everett and laird on the team. Of course, those contracts are his responsibility. But I think it was highly unlikely for them to get almost zero value from. These are fair criticisms of his past actions, but these decisions were made in the winter of 2007. That's almost four years ago. I put a lot more stock in his recent moves when deciding whether an extension is a good move. Even with those dead weight contracts, he was able to put a competitive team on the field. I care about performance going forward, and his actions post 2008 were good, IMO.

Well this is where I disagree, outside of Turner the recent drafts appear poor imo. His big free agent move has been Victor Martinez, an average DH. A perfectly fine signing but nothing that any other GM couldn't have done easily. His trades have mostly been bad. He got what in my view is a very lucky break with Peralta being good, (given that the Tigers gave up nothing for him and he was traded inside the division I don't think it's just me that feels this way) but otherwise he gave up one of the better players in MLB for a weak return. He routinely trades for and signs relief pitching and yet the Tigers still year in and year out have a weak bullpen. He still gives out bad contract extensions as if he'd learned nothing from the past. Two years for a declining injured Brandon Inge? Come on.

The Tigers are the best team in an awful division, they have a high potential starting rotation and I certainly give him credit for drafting Verlander and Porcello, and acquiring Fister, but at this point despite all the talent the rotation has not performed very well. The Bullpen is bad despite heavy investment into it.

The lineup is the big ? mark to me, if Avila and Boesch are indeed long term ++ players then obviously that makes Dombrowski's drafting and player development look a lot better. If Jackson turns into a non bad player then the Granderson trade looks a lot less awful. It's certainly possible that in three years I'll have changed my tune on the Dave Dombrowski era, but as things stand now I don't think he's done a very good job since the Cabrera trade.

I guess my personal overall opinion is not that Dombrowski is a bad GM, he's done an overall good job in Detroit I agree, I just don't think he's the right GM for sustained contention. He's shown little to indicate he can put the right players around his stars (poor bottom of the lineup every year but this one, generally awful bullpen and back of the rotation) and the organization as a whole puts a lot of value into players who are just generally bad. If I saw Dombrowski move away from power arms with control problems and toolsy hitters I'd feel a lot better about his reign.

I'm not disgusted with this extension or anything, but I think it was pretty questionable to do it before seeing how the rest of this season unfolds.

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Heavy investment? He rarely invests in the bullpen. He usually pays big bucks for closers and then fills it in. Valverde has been good. Todd Jones did his job. Besides Benoit, what middle reliever has he really invested in?

His trades have been mostly bad? Really? Cabrera, Polanco, Guillen, Peralta, Edwin Jackson? That's 5 all-stars and only one player he traded panned out.

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I like the move. I'm not 100% behind Leyland and disagree with many of the decisions he makes. However just about every manager in the game makes many of the same decisions and Leyland at least has the players behind him. Plus one year actually sounds like a good decision.

As for DD, I think his track record speaks for itself and as one that extends beyond his time here. Consider me in favor ...

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Heavy investment? He rarely invests in the bullpen. He usually pays big bucks for closers and then fills it in. Valverde has been good. Todd Jones did his job. Besides Benoit, what middle reliever has he really invested in?

His trades have been mostly bad? Really? Cabrera, Polanco, Guillen, Peralta, Edwin Jackson? That's 5 all-stars and only one player he traded panned out.

Do you mean investment in terms of cash or draft picks? Because obviously he's spent a lot of draft picks on the bullpen that haven't worked out.

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My reaction is meh.

But how will we feel if they blow YET ANOTHER September lead?

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Carlos Silva signed for 40 million and Meche signed for 55 million, so at the time Robertson got pretty fair market value.

Why is the argument that "well, other GMs have given out bad contracts too"? So what? that doesn't excuse DD for handing Willis, Robertson, and - to a lesser extent - Bonderman horrible deals.

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But it does excuse him in a way. That's part of the process IMO. Especially in a situation like we have been in, where our fans have expected us to win now at all costs, extending the current talent was the only option and with long term guaranteed contracts, X% of them are going to be written off. We had a lot of bad contracts all at once so it looked bad, but its also been years since DD signed anyone who doesn't look like a good signing. They pushed all their cards to the middle after the WS, but since they have had a much more solid strategy of building long term.

You can't blame the pitching failured in 07 and 08 on DD really. The same guys that took us to the WS fell apart, maybe due to the innings pitched while reaching the WS. JV,Rogers,Bondo,Robertson and Zumaya all fell apart on us. There was no replacing that kind of talent. Our offensive guys fell apart somewhat as well due mostly to age.

I can't sit here and say we aren't set up well though. We have 2 superstars to build around, A solid base of talented position players and our pitching staff is pretty stocked with talented arms in the pen and rotation, short and long term. I wouldn't trade situations with any other AL Central team right now.

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The biggest reason why it was wrong to extend Willis and Robertson was that they were still under team control.

It really only makes sense to buy out arbitration years to delay free agency on elite players who carry relatively little risk (performance and injury). Robertson and Willis did not fit in that category.

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Here's what I meant by heavy investment, let's compare the Tigers bullpen to the Indians superior bullpen:

Detroit: Jose Valverde, big money, gave up 1st round pick

Joaquin Benoit: big money

David Purcey: traded Scott Sizemore

Ryan Perry: 1st round draft pick

Phil Coke/Daniel Schlereth: Involved in trade of starting CF and #2/#3 starter

David Pauley: Throw in in Fister trade

Al Alburquerque, Duane Below, Bryan Villareal, Adam Wilk etc: Low draft picks/minor league deals/little investment

And of course, all the other reliever draft picks who have contributed nothing to MLB

Cleveland: Chris Perez - Perez and PTBNL for the corpse of Mark Derosa

Tony Sipp: 45th round pick

Rafael Perez: Signed as amateur free agent

Joe Smith: Part of an 11 player deal, seems to be a Pauley like throw in

Vinnie Pestano: 20th round pick

Chad Durbin: Free agent (800,000 salary)

Frank Hermann: Signed as amateur free agent

Justin Germano: minor league free agent

The Indians have basically given up nothing for their bullpen, they've drafted guys in the lower rounds, and gotten guys as throw ins in trades. Even if we assume Coke and Schlereth were just throw ins themselves, the Tigers still gave up 2 1st round picks, one useful player, and something like 15 million dollars this year for an inferior bullpen.

And this is the norm for Dombrowski, he pays for relief, he trades for relief, he drafts relief, and the bullpen is still bad. It's ridiculous.

As for bad trades, the Granderson trade was awful, the Sizemore trade, Matt Joyce, the Tigers have given up a lot of useful players lately and have little to show for it. The Polanco and Guillen trades were 6+ years ago, great.

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Why is the argument that "well, other GMs have given out bad contracts too"? So what? that doesn't excuse DD for handing Willis, Robertson, and - to a lesser extent - Bonderman horrible deals.

I read it as it was market rate, not other guys made bad mistakes too.

In 2005 you had to pay around $180k for a 1200 sqft bungalow, in 2011 you can get that same house for under $100k. Was the guy in 2005 stupid or could he have lived in a box until 2011 knowing the price was going to be cut in half in 6 yrs?

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Here's what I meant by heavy investment, let's compare the Tigers bullpen to the Indians superior bullpen:

Detroit: Jose Valverde, big money, gave up 1st round pick

Joaquin Benoit: big money

David Purcey: traded Scott Sizemore

Ryan Perry: 1st round draft pick

Phil Coke/Daniel Schlereth: Involved in trade of starting CF and #2/#3 starter

David Pauley: Throw in in Fister trade

Al Alburquerque, Duane Below, Bryan Villareal, Adam Wilk etc: Low draft picks/minor league deals/little investment

And of course, all the other reliever draft picks who have contributed nothing to MLB

Cleveland: Chris Perez - Perez and PTBNL for the corpse of Mark Derosa

Tony Sipp: 45th round pick

Rafael Perez: Signed as amateur free agent

Joe Smith: Part of an 11 player deal, seems to be a Pauley like throw in

Vinnie Pestano: 20th round pick

Chad Durbin: Free agent (800,000 salary)

Frank Hermann: Signed as amateur free agent

Justin Germano: minor league free agent

The Indians have basically given up nothing for their bullpen, they've drafted guys in the lower rounds, and gotten guys as throw ins in trades. Even if we assume Coke and Schlereth were just throw ins themselves, the Tigers still gave up 2 1st round picks, one useful player, and something like 15 million dollars this year for an inferior bullpen.

And this is the norm for Dombrowski, he pays for relief, he trades for relief, he drafts relief, and the bullpen is still bad. It's ridiculous.

As for bad trades, the Granderson trade was awful, the Sizemore trade, Matt Joyce, the Tigers have given up a lot of useful players lately and have little to show for it. The Polanco and Guillen trades were 6+ years ago, great.

IMO bullpens are luck, the same guy who is lock down one year can't get anyone out the next. Get them any which way you can because they are far too unpredictable. I'd prefer Cleveland's way but I can't say it will work again. I hated the Valverde/Benoit signings for that very reason but I can't complain about the results.

Matt Joyce was turned into Jackson/Coke/Shlereth/Scherzer but we did get an all star game appearance out of it before he was flipped. Lets not act like Joyce is more than what he is, how's he doing in the last 2 months? He has had a very Boesch 2010 like season, hasn't he? Are you dismissing the Peralta trade? That was last year.

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My reaction is meh.

But how will we feel if they blow YET ANOTHER September lead?

Impossible Buddha! The Tigers NEVER blow leads, it's just the other teams outplay them down the stretch!

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IMO bullpens are luck, the same guy who is lock down one year can't get anyone out the next. Get them any which way you can because they are far too unpredictable. I'd prefer Cleveland's way but I can't say it will work again. I hated the Valverde/Benoit signings for that very reason but I can't complain about the results.

Matt Joyce was turned into Jackson/Coke/Shlereth/Scherzer but we did get an all star game appearance out of it before he was flipped. Lets not act like Joyce is more than what he is, how's he doing in the last 2 months? He has had a very Boesch 2010 like season, hasn't he? Are you dismissing the Peralta trade? That was last year.

Well DD is the one that opened his mouth and claimed that his farm system/major league roster could produce "10 major league ready relievers".

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