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MSUBrian11

Sizemore Up, Rhymes down

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EDIT: I rip on Don Kelly a lot, but he does provide postional flexability. He helps enable the Tigers to carry one-dimensional guys on the bench or an extra bullpen pitcher if they desire. He has more bench value than Rhymes, for example.

Don Kelly can provide a very useful role, if used the right way. IMO Leyland tremendously overuses Kelly, making it hard for me to appreciate the versatility he provides.

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I have an honest to god question here. Leyland gets fired, some new younger, hipper (whatever) manager comes in that plays it the way you guys suggest. Taking the top performers and moving them around fluidly.

Once they get moved the start to decline, IF that happened what would you say about it? What if happened 8 times out of 10. 2 times it worked and the guy keeps hitting at the same clip, but the other 8 times it doesnt work? Would you stick to the theory that when they are hot the hit at the top? Would it change your opinion on it any?

What's happening to the Tigers is what happened to the Pistons. The expectations of the fans are higher than the talent on the field. Everyone wanted Flip Saunders fired because the Pistons weren't winning championships. They frankly didn't have a championship roster and were over achievers. That didn't matter, Flip had to go. Fine Saunders was fired. Curry comes in, one year fired. Now I think fans are getting that the Pistons just don't have good players.

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Leyland tried to match up the batting order with positions, but got too confused with the outfield, catcher, and shortstop. So he just went back to pulling names out of a hat.

And even then he keeps burning holes in his hat every time he draws a name

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What's happening to the Tigers is what happened to the Pistons. The expectations of the fans are higher than the talent on the field. Everyone wanted Flip Saunders fired because the Pistons weren't winning championships. They frankly didn't have a championship roster and were over achievers. That didn't matter, Flip had to go. Fine Saunders was fired. Curry comes in, one year fired. Now I think fans are getting that the Pistons just don't have good players.

This comparison would work if we expected the team to win.

We don't.

We acknowledge the team simply isn't built to win any championships.

We just asks that the manager doesn't put the team at a further disadvantage.

Unfortunately, Leyland does just that, which is why most of us want him gone.

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Finally sanity starts to prevail.

I strongly disagree that this team is toast at this stage. We need a spark or two and this is a move in the right direction. Dirks, Oliver, Furbush and even yes Austin Jackson will likely make contributions to this team this year. Some, hopefully arrive sooner than later.

I still believe Rhymes could turn out to be a fine bench player at the big league level, and maybe even more so in the national league, however people piling on this guy right now is a little over the top as well. Let's keep the critique on the guy who's really responsible and likely losing his mind right now ....

I agree with your assessment that it's too early to deem this Tigers team as toast -- too much talent with (ahem) track records. Who's to say V-Mart wouldn't have made a difference these last couple weeks?

However, Rhymes is a one-position player, not a versatile utility player such as Santiago. His worth to a Major League team is thus limited. As one who stands a mere 5'6" on his toes, no one was rooting for the guy more than me! He's adept at doing all those little things that win ball games - sacrifice bunting, hitting behind the runner, stealing a base when needed - but he'll never be an offensive spark plug that AJax needs to be for this offense to go. I certainly hope he gets another shot...somewhere.

I saw Sizemore play a lot during his late season call-up last year. He displayed fine power to rightfield and moved a lot better in the field than earlier. Broken ankles are a ***** (I know!) to come back from, often causing associated back problems because of over-compensating.

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This comparison would work if we expected the team to win.

We don't.

We acknowledge the team simply isn't built to win any championships.

We just asks that the manager doesn't put the team at a further disadvantage.

Unfortunately, Leyland does just that, which is why most of us want him gone.

Oh everything would be fantastic then if the team was 12-17 but did it to your liking?

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I have an honest to god question here. Leyland gets fired, some new younger, hipper (whatever) manager comes in that plays it the way you guys suggest. Taking the top performers and moving them around fluidly.

Once they get moved they start to decline, IF that happened what would you say about it? What if happened 8 times out of 10. 2 times it worked and the guy keeps hitting at the same clip, but the other 8 times it doesnt work? Would you stick to the theory that when they are hot the hit at the top? Would it change your opinion on it any?

I don't think it's as much when they are hot they hit at the top as it is when they are ice cold, they don't hit near the top. Besides, Maggs has a career 1.417 OPS when batting 9th, he'll be fine

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What's happening to the Tigers is what happened to the Pistons. The expectations of the fans are higher than the talent on the field. Everyone wanted Flip Saunders fired because the Pistons weren't winning championships. They frankly didn't have a championship roster and were over achievers. That didn't matter, Flip had to go. Fine Saunders was fired. Curry comes in, one year fired. Now I think fans are getting that the Pistons just don't have good players.

In all seriousness I am a 'hope' kind of person when it comes to our sports teams. I always 'hope' they will do well and predict greatness at the beginning of the year every year with every team.

Your analogy is a good one IMO. I do personally believe the Tigers are drastically under performing and can be better than what they are showing, but when your 3 hitter is hitting .150, your lead off batter is striking out 3 times a game and your 5 hitter cant stay healthy it drags everything down.

I usually over estimate 4-5 games in the Tigers favor every year. At the rate they are going if they go .500 I would be a bit surprised. Not drastically surprised, but a little. On the opposite end of that spectrum It wouldnt completely shock me right now if they won 90 games. Alot has to go right and straighten itself out.

I am a firm believer in the 'comfort' factor with hitters and not bouncing them around like ping pong balls. That doesnt mean I am right, but that is how I feel about it.

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Oh everything would be fantastic then if the team was 12-17 but did it to your liking?

It would be better, if you're team is losing because they are just losing, the majority of fans can see that and deal with it. When it looks like the wrong decisions are being made over and over again, we'd at least like to see what would happen if it was done correctly

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I don't think it's as much when they are hot they hit at the top as it is when they are ice cold, they don't hit near the top. Besides, Maggs has a career 1.417 OPS when batting 9th, he'll be fine

I agree with this, but mixed up in this whole line up conversation I am hearing alot of people advocating moving Avila up. He is a young kid and I wouldnt want to put the extra pressure on him. Jackson needs to move for sure I think most of us are in agreement there. And while there is something wrong with Ordonez I still think he is your 3 hitter. I think he needs to sit a little first though to get his head right or something.

Everything else with the line up is fine IMO. I like Miggy at 4, I like Boesch at 5 right now until Martinez gets healthy. I like Avila at 7-8.

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I have an honest to god question here. Leyland gets fired, some new younger, hipper (whatever) manager comes in that plays it the way you guys suggest. Taking the top performers and moving them around fluidly.

Once they get moved they start to decline, IF that happened what would you say about it? What if happened 8 times out of 10. 2 times it worked and the guy keeps hitting at the same clip, but the other 8 times it doesnt work? Would you stick to the theory that when they are hot the hit at the top? Would it change your opinion on it any?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If say, you move Avila to the three spot and he struggles mightily, you tinker with the lineup again. Leyland's refusal to adapt and stubbornness is what a lot of people are complaining about.

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Oh everything would be fantastic then if the team was 12-17 but did it to your liking?

Fantastic?

No, but I wouldn't be calling for the manager to be fired.

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It would be better, if you're team is losing because they are just losing, the majority of fans can see that and deal with it. When it looks like the wrong decisions are being made over and over again, we'd at least like to see what would happen if it was done correctly

How can you look at this team and see more than 75 wins? People thought Flip Saunders was making all the wrong decisions. Forgive Leyland for starting his best pitcher against the Yankees and going to his best reliever in the 9th. Those decisions cost us.

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It would be better, if you're team is losing because they are just losing, the majority of fans can see that and deal with it. When it looks like the wrong decisions are being made over and over again, we'd at least like to see what would happen if it was done correctly

"Correctly" according to who? 30 or 40 vocal majority on a sports forum?

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Fantastic?

No, but I wouldn't be calling for the manager to be fired.

Yes you would. It always happens when teams are losing. Look at Jim Schwartz. When the Lions were 2-10 there was even a thread asking for the commissioner to step in and do something. One four game winning streak later and fans love him.

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How can you look at this team and see more than 75 wins? People thought Flip Saunders was making all the wrong decisions. Forgive Leyland for starting his best pitcher against the Yankees and going to his best reliever in the 9th. Those decisions cost us.

So was skipping Porcello and starting Coke against a team that destroyed him the week before a good decision?

What about a batting order with your 1-2-3 hitters all under .200 for the month of April?

Or how about Boesch tearing the cover off the ball when he bats in front of Miggy while Maggs was injured being moved back to 5th so Maggs could pop out comfortable in the 3 hole?

I could keep going

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I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If say, you move Avila to the three spot and he struggles mightily, you tinker with the lineup again. Leyland's refusal to adapt and stubbornness is what a lot of people are complaining about.

That is what I am getting at. So Avila struggles when moved up in a hypotehetical. Then when moved back down can't find it again and continues to struggle. Do you ***** and moan because he should have left well enough alone or do you simply attribute his decline to the natural progression or degression in this example?

IMO Leyland haters will ALWAYS be Leyland haters. No matter what he does because if it doesnt work he is an easy goat.

I don't love nor hate him, but the 'know it all' attitude on this forum is quite sickening.

It reminds me of a couple posts made last month or so where a couple posters were shining each other on about how smart 'everyone' on this forum is.

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Yes you would. It always happens when teams are losing. Look at Jim Schwartz. When the Lions were 2-10 there was even a thread asking for the commissioner to step in and do something. One four game winning streak later and fans love him.

No, I wouldn't.

You have no idea what the hell I would be doing.

I'm not criticizing Leyland for the team being bad, not one thing I have said even suggests I am doing that.

I'm criticizing specific things he has been doing this year that have contributed to the team doing poorly.

And when the Lions were 2-10, I never once thought they should fire Schwartz.

Until this year I never was a proponent of firing Leyland. I've never liked the guy, but I never blamed him for the Tigers struggles. This year he has been horrible and has contributed to their poor performance, and now I do think he should be fired.

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"Correctly" according to who? 30 or 40 vocal majority on a sports forum?

According to the rest of the baseball world. Is Carl Crawford still batting third in Boston? NOPE, because he's hitting .170, they dropped him to 8th, regardless of how much money he makes and where he's "comfortable", it's because Boston's manager wants to put his team in the best position to win

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How can you look at this team and see more than 75 wins? People thought Flip Saunders was making all the wrong decisions. Forgive Leyland for starting his best pitcher against the Yankees and going to his best reliever in the 9th. Those decisions cost us.

I see 75+ wins easy.

Cabrera is highly valuable, so are Verlander and Scherzer. The back three starters are probably average in aggregate. The bullpen is likely to be no worse than average in aggregate by season's end.

On offense, Peralta is probably average to better at short, Raburn and Boesch are likely to be around average at corner OF. Martinez is likely to be average to a little better at DH. Avila will probably be no worse than average offensively at C.

That leaves CF, 3B, 2B as problem spots, 2 of which we have a potential internal option that can address it reasonably well. What to do with Ordonez is an issue, but I wonder if he won't go on the DL.

As for defense, they will probably be a league average to slighty below league average team for turning balls into plays for outs. This team really should be able to win 84 games or something.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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Fantastic?

No, but I wouldn't be calling for the manager to be fired.

I agree, there weren't a bunch of Fire Trammel posts in 2003, we all knew the team was trash and couldn't have won with Jesus making out the lineups

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???:confused:???

Sorry...i meant i hope everyone DOESN'T start drilling him...don't you just love it when you mind thinks quicker than what typing :embar:

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Have you seen Boston's roster? It's pretty easy to move Crawford down when you have, you know, good players.

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