Jump to content

PuNk42AE

*Vote* Should Dumars stay?

Should Dumars be fired?  

47 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Dumars be fired?

    • Yes - His time has come and we need a full rebuild
      30
    • No - Give him 1 season to try and reshape the team
      17


Recommended Posts

Since Casimir brought up the question about the vote...

Should Gores let Dumars stay for at least 1 seasons to try and build the team back up, or has his time passed and we need a complete change to the franchise?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One more year. If there is marked improvement then great. If there is further decline, then I say bring in the next guy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't the CBA up during this offseason? I wonder if/how that may factor into a decision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gores tells Dumars he's President for life. Read the article, explains some of the headscratchers the past few years.

Drew Sharp: Pistons can finally go back to work | Detroit Free Press | freep.com

More good news: Joe Dumars isn't going anywhere. It's believed Gores has told him that he can remain president for as long as he desires. It's difficult imagining Dumars walking away after getting an owner who is as committed as he is in restoring pride to an organization reduced to rubble under Davidson's two years as keeper to Bill Davidson's basketball legacy.

The Pistons thought they had a tentative deal with Avery Johnson two years ago, but Davidson nixed the deal because she was hesitant about paying a new coach perhaps as much as $4 million annually while still paying off Flip Saunders' contract and Michael Curry's parting gift after one season as coach.

Rip Hamilton wasn't supposed to remain a Piston following the free-agent acquisitions of Charlie Villanueva and Ben Gordon two summers ago. It's long believed he was ticketed to Utah in a trade that would have brought Carlos Boozer to Detroit. But again, Davidson interceded. The deal stalled, leaving the Pistons with an abundance of shooting guards.

Edited by DrWho17

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It wasn't Karen's fault that we drafted Darko, it wasn't Karen's fault that we traded for Iverson, it wasn't Karen's fault that we signed Gordon and Villanueva to the nice contracts they got to begin with, it wasn't Karen's fault that Joe insisted Stuckey be a PG when he clearly shouldn't have been, it wasn't Karen's fault we signed Kwame Brown and Chris Wilcox, it wasn't Karen's fault that we drafted both Amir Johnson and Jason Maxiell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It wasn't Karen's fault that we drafted Darko, it wasn't Karen's fault that we traded for Iverson, it wasn't Karen's fault that we signed Gordon and Villanueva to the nice contracts they got to begin with, it wasn't Karen's fault that Joe insisted Stuckey be a PG when he clearly shouldn't have been, it wasn't Karen's fault we signed Kwame Brown and Chris Wilcox, it wasn't Karen's fault that we drafted both Amir Johnson and Jason Maxiell.

These are my thoughts too. I'm not a Karen Davidson fan but even I jump to her defense when she's made the scapegoat. I really hope Dumars wasn't Sharp's source for that article.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It wasn't Karen's fault that we drafted Darko, it wasn't Karen's fault that we traded for Iverson, it wasn't Karen's fault that we signed Gordon and Villanueva to the nice contracts they got to begin with, it wasn't Karen's fault that Joe insisted Stuckey be a PG when he clearly shouldn't have been, it wasn't Karen's fault we signed Kwame Brown and Chris Wilcox, it wasn't Karen's fault that we drafted both Amir Johnson and Jason Maxiell.

So?

Darko was consensus number #2 pick, players bust, it happens going back on that is just a cheap shot.

Iverson trade was applauded by many here, Gordon/Villanueva would have looked much better if Hamilton was moved.

Stuckey whether you like him or not is a good player, value at #15. Kwame Brown/Chris Wilcox, minor signings, come on now really reaching on that one.

Amir Johnson/Maxiell both very good picks, Maxiell at #25 and Johnson at #56 both are still in the NBA and contributers, you can find a lot of things to blame on Dumars but those are two good picks.

Kuestar has been a big disaster, Avery Johnson wouldn't have gotten bullied around by these guys.

Do you guys really doubt that KD was messing with things? Do you think Dumars really went from a top GM in the league to outright stupid?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So?

Darko was consensus number #2 pick, players bust, it happens going back on that is just a cheap shot.

Iverson trade was applauded by many here, Gordon/Villanueva would have looked much better if Hamilton was moved.

Stuckey whether you like him or not is a good player, value at #15. Kwame Brown/Chris Wilcox, minor signings, come on now really reaching on that one.

Amir Johnson/Maxiell both very good picks, Maxiell at #25 and Johnson at #56 both are still in the NBA and contributers, you can find a lot of things to blame on Dumars but those are two good picks.

Kuestar has been a big disaster, Avery Johnson wouldn't have gotten bullied around by these guys.

Do you guys really doubt that KD was messing with things? Do you think Dumars really went from a top GM in the league to outright stupid?

The Iverson trade was applauded because of the money it freed up. Given how it was spent, that Billups remained productive and that Stuckey was not prepared to take over the role Dumars gave him, the trade doesn't look good today.

How would CV look better without Rip? And how would he fit with another PF, Boozer, who was allegedly going to be traded for? Gordon shouldn't have been signed unless he knew he had a Rip trade approved and ready to go. That's just simple, you don't add that kind of contract hoping to get approval. Regardless, Gordon left Chicago with a reputation of not being able to defend SGs and a need to dominate the ball at the expense of the entire offense. I'm not sure why he would ever be a good backcourt match with Stuckey.

Kuester was a disaster, so was Curry and some here would argue that Flip was too (though I wouldn't agree). I see a pattern that started to develop before Karen Davidson was involved.

After the Rasheed trade Dumars sat on that roster, never making a significant move, never addressing Rasheed's attitude. His rebuilding plan has been marred by one bad move after another and now he's blaming Karen Davidson? I actually think less of him after reading that article for which he or his personal PR director seems to have been the chief source.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Darko was the consensus number 2 pick in the draft in 03. He busted, it happens.

The Iverson trade was a disaster because of how the freed up money was spent. CV and Gordon have been terrible pick-ups and Stuckey has never lived up to what Joe thinks and wants him to be. I will blame Joe for those things and the coaching hires he has made since firing Flip. If they continue to stink next year, then Joe has to go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would prefer a fresh start from the owner on down to the coach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Read the article.

Let's say Kuester was in over his head and brought here because of Karen Davidson. That still doesn't change the fact that the previous two decisions were made by Dumars and they failed. That's what caused the logjam of money being paid to coaches still not here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm growing quite numb to the whole thing.

Joe or no Joe, you need to draft one superstar and two more of Greg Monroe's caliber, over the next 3 years; free agents worth having are not coming here - not to S.E. Michigan.

....The NBA's significance has been whittled down to about 6-8 franchises. The others don't have the drawing power to attain big-time FAs, or to retain a lucky premium pick, after their rookie contract (it will be interesting to see what Keven Durant and John Wall do, when their deals are up).

....If you're into 45-50 wins and perhaps making it to the 2nd round of the Playoffs, hey - more power to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am frankly surprised there are 10 votes in favor in keeping Dumars at least 1 more year.

I voted to keep him on in part because the NBA seems to be filled with especially bad GMs. Not clear to me that a new person would do better than Joe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am frankly surprised there are 10 votes in favor in keeping Dumars at least 1 more year.

The results are skewed because it is on this forum with the guys who've hated Dumars since when he was making the ECF's, or who blame him for "bad drafts" when they were drafting at slots where you don't really find good players. If the poll were among general fans Dumars would without question win in a Landslide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The results are skewed because it is on this forum with the guys who've hated Dumars since when he was making the ECF's, or who blame him for "bad drafts" when they were drafting at slots where you don't really find good players. If the poll were among general fans Dumars would without question win in a Landslide.

Well, I haven't 'hated' on Dumars, and would like to think I am reasonably objective about him, but from my perspective it has been an extremely long time since he has made a move that has made the Pistons significantly better.

I seem to remember getting into this discussion a year ago, and at the time I suggested arguably the best thing he has done since the end of the '07 - '08 season (his no sacred cows speech / when it was clear the team needed to rebuilt or overhauled) was sign Ben Wallace to a cheap 1-year deal. Since that time, drafting Greg Monroe has become that most positive move, but compare that to the negatives:

Coaching: Hired fired Michael Curry, hired (soon to be fired?) John Kuester

Personnel: Reportedly passed on a trade that would have sent Prince, Hamilton, and Stuckey for Rajon Rondo and Ray Allen, extended Rip Hamilton (shortly after trading Billups (?!)), used the money / flexibility created by trading Chauncey Billups to sign Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva, did not deal Rasheed Wallace when he was an expiring, did not deal Prince when he was an expiring (does he plan to re-sign Prince?)

The roster is an absolute mess, and it is a mess that he created. When I hear about how the pending sale hand-cuffed Joe, I almost want to laugh. He hand-cuffed himself a long time ago with his head-scratching moves, and besides, how likely is it that there was an amazing string of trades available that would have righted the ship - trades he was all for - but Karen Davidson said no? The Pistons simply do not have many trade pieces that would entice / invite trades.

Joe made a bunch of real good moves 10 years ago and rebuilt a team from scratch. I suppose one can argue that since he did it once, he can do it again. But I think a much stronger argument can be made that his most recent history suggests that he is not the right man to rebuild a team now.

EDIT: For the 'give Joe 1 more year' crowd - what does he need to accomplish next year to keep his job? I contend any moves he makes aren't likely to bear fruit for a few years, so keeping him as GM for another year probably just feeds into the argument that he be kept another year or two beyond that. From my perspective, we should be 3 years into the rebuild, and I wonder if we aren't deeper in the hole than when we started.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The results are skewed because it is on this forum with the guys who've hated Dumars since when he was making the ECF's, or who blame him for "bad drafts" when they were drafting at slots where you don't really find good players. If the poll were among general fans Dumars would without question win in a Landslide.

This is the first offseason I've suggested Dumars should be fired. And even that said, I think he's not given enough credit for what he did before this little landslide - or at least it seems easily forgotten or credited to others by Pistons purists.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the end-all decision was what he did with the money he made available with the loss of Iverson. As has been said here, I didn't mind trading Billups. There's a strong part of me that thinks Billups had lost some of his drive with the Pistons - just as many of the core players had - at the time he was traded. I figured the Pistons had two chances to succeed with the move:

1) Maybe Iverson will fit.

and if that didn't work who cares because

2) He'd have money available over the next one to two years to make some moves to get the Pistons back to being a strong team.

No. 1 didn't bother me. Heck, even if Iverson worked that one-half season, I probably wasn't going to be begging for him to come back. But what Dumars did with the freed money was an issue.

He has Charlie V and Ben Gordon locked up until the 2013-14 season, with them making up 21.8 mil of the budget during that season, provided they take the player options (they'd be idiots not to take it). Honestly, who's going to take Charlie V off your hands? And as it's going, who's going to take Ben Gordon?

Then, you look at this. Between Rip, Gordon, Charlie V and Maxiell you have $38 mil of contracts that will still be on the board through the 2012-13 season. AUGH. That's four people you want to get rid of, and who wants those guys?

Someone mentioned Max wasn't a bad draft pick for where they got them. Maybe that's true. But what was bad was extending a guy you can get off the rockpile for as long as they did. Fortunately, he signed him for "just" $5 mil for all those seasons, but just the fact he was signed though 2012-13, just makes you shake your head.

This isn't me ripping draft picks. These are serious decisions that he's made to kill the viability of this franchise for at least the next couple of years, unless he can pull something out of his hat and turn a Max and Rip deal for some NBA All-Star. I'm not holding my breath.

Honestly, I go out of this year thinking there's very little hope of turn for next year new owner or not. And that's what I really find frustrating right now. I could handle this season if I saw 1) effort, 2) a nucleus that makes sense for the future and/or 3) the freeing of money to make changes. Right now, I don't see any of those things in any convincing fashion, minus maybe a very tiny dash of No. 2. And this is Dumars' doing - no one else did it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm growing quite numb to the whole thing.

Joe or no Joe, you need to draft one superstar and two more of Greg Monroe's caliber, over the next 3 years; free agents worth having are not coming here - not to S.E. Michigan.

....The NBA's significance has been whittled down to about 6-8 franchises. The others don't have the drawing power to attain big-time FAs, or to retain a lucky premium pick, after their rookie contract (it will be interesting to see what Keven Durant and John Wall do, when their deals are up).

....If you're into 45-50 wins and perhaps making it to the 2nd round of the Playoffs, hey - more power to you.

Durant has already signed an extension, 5 years and not 3 like the 03 class:

Kevin Durant of Oklahoma City Thunder agrees on five-year contact extension worth estimated $86 million - ESPN

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...Then, you look at this. Between Rip, Gordon, Charlie V and Maxiell you have $38 mil of contracts that will still be on the board through the 2012-13 season. AUGH. That's four people you want to get rid of, and who wants those guys?...

...Honestly, I go out of this year thinking there's very little hope of turn for next year new owner or not. And that's what I really find frustrating right now. I could handle this season if I saw 1) effort, 2) a nucleus that makes sense for the future and/or 3) the freeing of money to make changes. Right now, I don't see any of those things in any convincing fashion, minus maybe a very tiny dash of No. 2. And this is Dumars' doing - no one else did it.

This concisely explains my position / thinking.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


Motown Sports Blog



×
×
  • Create New...