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Abortion "provider" charged with infanticide and murder

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I those of us who are pro-life need to be careful when responding to this story. This is a horrible, horrific story. This is just... awful. Beyond words. This guy needs to be punish severely.

But having said that, this is one doctor who's gone off the deep end. We can not hold him up as an example of the typical abortion doctor anymore than people can hold up Phelps as the typical Christian minister.

I'm just about as pro-choice as you can be (while still remaining lawful), and this story sickens me. But I think that even those who are staunch pro-choicers will agree what this doctor did was wrong and unconscionable. Even within the pro-choice, pro-abortion laws in Penn this doctor and clinic where well outside the rules of law.

I don't want to take away from the horror of this story. It's bad... beyond bad. Lives as innocent as you can get were snuffed out in gruesome ways. This guy needs to be punished as severely as possible and Penn needs to step up their inspections big time!

I just don't want people to hope this up and start saying: "Look this is what you get when you allow abortion!" That isn't the case. This is an extreme (and I dearly hope), isolated incident. To claim otherwise will not help the pro-life cause.

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Certainly this story is horrific. But in my opinion all abortion is horrific under any circumstances, legal or not. The intentional cessation of human life for any reason is unconstitutional in my opinion and inhumane in 99.99% of cases. That's only what I believe.

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Certainly this story is horrific. But in my opinion all abortion is horrific under any circumstances, legal or not. The intentional cessation of human life for any reason is unconstitutional in my opinion and inhumane in 99.99% of cases. That's only what I believe.

Yup.

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Certainly this story is horrific. But in my opinion all abortion is horrific under any circumstances, legal or not. The intentional cessation of human life for any reason is unconstitutional in my opinion and inhumane in 99.99% of cases. That's only what I believe.

I don't disagree at all.

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I'm pretty thankful that the vast majority of people in the US disagree with you guys. Of course, that's also only what I believe.

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I'm pretty thankful that the vast majority of people in the US disagree with you guys. Of course, that's also only what I believe.

Okay, granted, this isn't saying that they view abortion as horrific, but:

Americans, as noted by Gallup in "More Americans Pro-Life Than Pro-Choice", are now being polled as pro-life, as opposed to pro-choice, for the first time since 1995, when Gallup began tracking the issue. CNN, in May 2007 earlier achieved this result, with just 45% surveying as pro-choice compared to 50% Pro-Life, though at the time, Gallup a week later found 49% responding pro-choice with only 45% pro-life.

Abortion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Okay, granted, this isn't saying that they view abortion as horrific, but:

Abortion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I self-identify more closely as pro-life than pro-choice (on that poll I'd likely choose the mixed/neither) yet I do not believe anything even remotely close to what eastside stated. I have yet to see a poll that suggests that the majority of people believe something remotely close to the statement that abortion is unconstitutional and inhumane 99.99% of the time.

Also, please note that the data in you link suggests that not only is the statement that the majority of people are pro-life not true as of 2010, but that there is no statistically significant difference between the percentage of people that self-identify as pro-life or pro-choice as of 2010 (also the variability of the data should prevent an organization from making the "majority" claim as well, even for the 2009 survey that had pro-life at 51%, but I've given up expecting responsible statistical reporting from basically anyone).

Most polls I've seen still suggest that first trimester abortions (which make up the majority of abortions) are still generally considered acceptable by the majority of people in the US (this is supported in the link you supplied above, for what it is worth) and that later term abortions have significantly less support. I have yet to see a poll suggesting that the majority of americans believe abortions should be completely outlawed in all situations (which is what the 'all abortions are unconstitutional' statement would require).

Also note that the poll that suggests that the majority of people are pro-life also finds that 76% of americans believe abortion should be legal in at least some circumstances.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/more-americans-pro-life-than-pro-choice-first-time.aspx

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I think it's logically consistent if one were to think that abortion is both horrific and inhumane while still thinking women should have a right to get one.

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I think it's logically consistent if one were to think that abortion is both horrific and inhumane while still thinking women should have a right to get one.

And unconstitutional?

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Certainly this story is horrific. But in my opinion all abortion is horrific under any circumstances, legal or not. The intentional cessation of human life for any reason is unconstitutional in my opinion and inhumane in 99.99% of cases. That's only what I believe.

What are the 0.01% of cases in which abortion is OK?

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And unconstitutional?

no because then it wouldn't mean they have a right to get one.

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I think it's logically consistent if one were to think that abortion is both horrific and inhumane while still thinking women should have a right to get one.

This is pretty much where I stand. If that makes me pro choice, so be it.

After reading the ProPublica story and a couple related to it, I have a gut feeling that this is what you would get if abortion is completely outlawed. This "doctor" was not a licenced provider. He sold drugs during the day (licensed by the state) and did the abortions at night.

The AP had a story this morning from one of his "patients" who said she only went to him after she was frightened away by Pro Life protesers at a Planned Parenthood clinic. A friend told her about the "doctor" and after she had paid (cash) she had second thoughts. She said the doctor hit her and forced her to go thru with the procedure. There have been complications since.

The Associated Press: Women: Pa. abortions left us sterile, near death

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What's Birthright?

This is their website:

Birthright International - 800-550-4900

Their ads in the late 80s that said they provided support for women with unplanned pregnancies who wanted a solution other than abortion. I just looked through the site and it appears they're not using that as an ad any more. Hopefully they haven't changed their focus, I'll have to look into that some more.

(I thought it would be easier to find; a google search brings up links to info on linking Jewish kids to Israel and children of illegal immigrants).

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In case the mother's life is in danger, then and only then do I support the choice.

Who decides whether the woman's life is in danger?

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I think it's logically consistent if one were to think that abortion is both horrific and inhumane while still thinking women should have a right to get one.

Agreed. It's uncommon, but conceivable to be against having an abortion yourself, but think a woman should have a right to choose. I know a few people who are like this.

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I imagine it would be her doctor or other qualified professional.
Thanks Shabba, I just thought the answer was obvious.

In which case, it becomes more likely that those who come from well-to-do families can find the doctor or other qualified professional to give the determination that is needed to produce the outcome desired.

And those that don't have the $$ will not.

Like in the good old days.

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