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oldglory1999

Tigers may lose the dh some games

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I don't mean to rehash the arguments regarding whether this is a big deal or whether they need to carry a dh. I would like to discuss how it will work in practice. Assume martinez hits 5th and Avila hits 8th and wells is on the bench. It's the bottom of the 7th inning with two outs and gardenhire brings in a lefty to face avila with a man on 2nd in a tie game. The tiger pinch hit wells for Avila. Wells is now in the 8th spot. He strikes out. Going into the 8th, victor moves to catcher and the tigers lose the dh. Where does the pitcher bat? The pitcher's spot can go anywhere in the lineup, correct? Do you remove wells and insert the pitcher there? Maybe it makes more sense to have the pitcher take over peralta's spot at 7. Leave wells in the game at 8. Replace raburn's spot with Santiago. I have begun rambling.

I guess my point is that I think Avila should bat behind someone with lessthan stellar defense, so that whoever hits for Avila can stay in the game as a defensive replacement.

Thoughts?

The pitcher goes in the line up in the place of the person Martinez bumped. So if he goes in at catcher the catcher spot is now where the DH bats.

But, I guess they could call Raburn or Magglio (or whoever) the catcher for 2.5 seconds and Wells a corner outfielder so that then what you are saying makes sense.

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Good question. My understanding is that it is the other way. When you bring the DH into the game, the pitcher must go into the spot of the person you take out of the lineup. So you put VM into the game when you pinch hit for Avila. The pitcher takes the spot of the guy you remove - Avila. Then you pinch hit for the pitcher. If the PH makes an out, the new pitcher is now 9 spots away from hitting again, just where you want him.

Do we have a third opinion? Or someone who is sure?:ponder:

This is correct.

It is also possible to double switch with the right set of changes if it makes sense (e.g. 4 or 5 batters come to the plate in the inning after Avila is removed).

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In my scenario- which I think is legal:

Wells bats for Avila. Wells is the catcher for now. Leyland ain't saying otherwise.

Between innings Leyland chooses who he wants out of the defensive line up. Wells takes that person's position. That person is called the catcher on the line up.

Martinez goes in at catcher replacing that person. Martinez keeps his spot in the order, of course. The pitcher bats for the removed "catcher".

If this is legal than Shelton is essentially right that the pitcher can go anywhere.

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This is correct.

It is also possible to double switch with the right set of changes, if it makes sense.

Why move Martinez in until you have to do so (between innings)? Wells is my catcher for now.

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Why move Martinez in until you have to do so (between innings)? Wells is my catcher for now.

Whenever Martinez catches, then the pitcher takes whomever was catching spot in the batting order at that moment in time of the switch. So, yes, if the Tigers pinch hit for Avila, then have that player take Wells defensive position and have Wells move to catcher to be replaced by Martinez (a double switch - which I alluded to in my response), then the pitcher would bat in Wells' spot.

The only reason why you would want the pitcher to not bat 8th in the scenario described is if the pinch hitter gets on base and extends the inning. If the pinch hitter makes an out, you wouldn't want a double switch.

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If wells and Martinez enter the game defensively at the same time, they are replacing two defensive players (raburn and Avila). As wells took avail's spot in the batting order, then the pitcher must take raburn's spit in the order. There is no rule precluding wells from remaining in the game.

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The other option in this scenario is that raburn remains in the game, and Martinez replaces wells (technically). As such, the pitcher takes wells spot in the order (formerly avila's).

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So this is not OK? Really- I may be learning something here about how defensive substitutions work.

CF Jackson

LF Raburn

RF Ordonez

1B Cabrera

DH Martinez

2B Guillen

SS Peralta

3B Inge

C Avila

Pinch Hit

CF Jackson

LF Raburn

RF Ordonez

1B Cabrera

DH Martinez

2B Guillen

SS Peralta

3B Inge

PH Wells

The inning continues and Maggs makes the last out.

Wells stays in as catcher. Martinez becomes the RF'er on the line up card. Verlander takes Magg's spot in the line up.

CF Jackson

LF Raburn

P Verlander

1B Cabrera

RF Martinez

2B Guillen

SS Peralta

3B Inge

C Wells

Now we have a National League team essentially. I have the catcher and right fielder swap spots before the first pitch.

CF Jackson

LF Raburn

P Verlander

1B Cabrera

C Martinez

2B Guillen

SS Peralta

3B Inge

RF Wells

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So this is not OK? Really- I may be learning something here about how defensive substitutions work.

The simple answer is somebody has to leave the game once Victor goes into catch, and the pitcher takes that spot. Usually it is the pinch hitter who came in for Avila, but you could double switch if there were a strategic benefit in doing so (e.g. the pinch hitter for Avila reaches base, if not additional batters).

The practical answer is that there usually aren't that many guys you would want to take out of the line-up in a close game (otherwise they wouldn't be in the game in the first place) and the skill sets of the remaining bench players limit your possible moves as well. So while it is true the pitcher could be hypothetically hitting any spot in the order, on this team, I doubt he'd be hitting anywhere other than 7th-9th or maybe 2nd.

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Where does the pitcher bat? The pitcher's spot can go anywhere in the lineup, correct? Do you remove wells and insert the pitcher there?

EDIT: see my post below for an accurate response to Shelton's complete post.

Edited by sabretooth

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Rule 6.10:

"The Designated Hitter may be used defensively, continuing to bat in the same position in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player"

In this case, the pitcher must go into Avila's spot.

The substitution referenced does not occur until the team takes the field in the next half inning. Anyone can be replaced.

Wikipedia: On August 19, 2009, Oakland Athletics catcher Landon Powell was pinch-run for by Nomar Garciaparra in a game against the New York Yankees. Garciaparra stayed in the game at first base and designated hitter Kurt Suzuki ended up replacing Powell at catcher. The A's ended up forfeiting their designated hitter because of the switch.[28]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/OAK/OAK200908190.shtml

Edited by jaymo

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The substitution referenced does not occur until the team takes the field in the next half inning. Anyone can be replaced.

Yes, if other people are replaced in the same half-inning (sorry, I didn't read the rest of Shelton's original post), and the new player in the 8th spot (or his replacement) stays in the field for a 3rd player (other than Avila or Martinez), then the pitcher would go into that 3rd player's spot.

So if Avila is pinch-hit for with Wells in the 8th spot, and Don Kelly is batting 7th and playing LF, Wells could remain in the game in the next inning in LF, and the pitcher would go into the 7th spot in the order replacing Don Kelly.

You're right that you should always wait until the beginning of the next half-inning to announce your defensive arrangements to maximize flexibility (i.e., the inning is prolonged, other pinch-hitters are needed, blah blah).

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Anyway, the end result is that the pitcher's spot in the order can go to any player that leaves the field at the start of the next half inning. Late in a game, you may want to make a defensive replacement, so I think Avila should bat either before or after a poor defender to give the tigers the option of keeping the pinch hitter in the game for defensive purposes.

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If wells and Martinez enter the game defensively at the same time, they are replacing two defensive players (raburn and Avila). As wells took avail's spot in the batting order, then the pitcher must take raburn's spit in the order. There is no rule precluding wells from remaining in the game.

This is correct.

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But what if Wells is playing at Toledo that night? (ducks very quickly)

If Raburn or Avila were also in Toledo it would still work.

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Maybe this is already been discussed, but isn't there a way that for example: santiago pinch hits for avila, then becomes the dh, therefore giving martinez the catcher position?

This all speculation of course, personally i think avila will do "most" of the catching this season.

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Maybe this is already been discussed, but isn't there a way that for example: santiago pinch hits for avila, then becomes the dh, therefore giving martinez the catcher position?

This all speculation of course, personally i think avila will do "most" of the catching this season.

You can replace the player who is DH with another player but that player cannot already be in the game (must come from the bench) and the DH you removed may not then re-enter the game, and you cannot move the DH spot to any other spot in the lineup, so you can't double switch the DH - except as part of a switch in which you give up having a DH. You can put a player at DH into the game in the field only by forfeiting further use of a DH.

What you propose would not be legal because if Martinez enters the game, you must forfeit the DH from that point forward.

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You can replace the player who is DH with another player but that player cannot already be in the game (must come from the bench) and the DH you removed may not then re-enter the game, and you cannot move the DH spot to any other spot in the lineup, so you can't double switch the DH - except as part of a switch in which you give up having a DH. You can put a player at DH into the game in the field only by forfeiting further use of a DH.

What you propose would not be legal because if Martinez enters the game, you must forfeit the DH from that point forward.

That's cool...personally I think that's crap though, I think the mlb needs to re-evalute their rules on this type of situation.

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