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belcherboy

When do you push the "fire" button on Rich Rod?

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Dave Brandon doesn't give a **** about what happened in 2008-09, except as a measure for whether the team is progressing.

Go dig up his quote about the number of wins rr needs.

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Dave Brandon doesn't give a **** about what happened in 2008-09, except as a measure for whether the team is progressing.

Go dig up his quote about the number of wins rr needs.

Of course he is going to say that, but do YOU actually believe him? Do you think he wants recruiters and recruits to know his coach is on the hot seat??

Are you saying that his 0-3 record against MSU, is not going to be one of many reasons he is fired, if he is fired?

Are you saying that his single digit wins in the B10 over that past 3 seasons isn't going to carry some weight when determining his dismissal?

I understand this season is most important, but those facts of previous seasons will carry a lot of weight. At least they do in ANY major program. Ask John Cooper if beating your rivals is important! At least JC was winning A LOT of games, RR is not only losing to his rivals, but to the majority of the B10 as well!!

Edited by belcherboy

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Look, a smart coach may step in and see what he has on the offense and not immediately change it from the spread to something else. If it looks like the offense works, don't screw with it too much.

Rich Rod needs to go 4-4 in the Big Eleven to keep his job. The have to beat at least ONE team of some substance. 3 years is enough to show some progress, but you can't only look at the offense, he is the head coach and is ultimately responsible for the defense and special teams too - and there has been regression, not progress in both.

They won't make any decision until the season ends, but if he doesn't beat Penn State - he's in big, big trouble.

I agree completely on the record for this year, no doubt about it. Let it play out, painful as it may be. I also think he has an above 50% chance of making it there.

I think Devin Gardner would agree with you, not sure Denard will or that it is smart for a non spread coach to come in and try to work the spread with Denard. UM fans have shown they will turn on a coach for working towards his strengths instead of an unknown offense. I also don't think it makes sense to do this as from a coaching perspective as he is delaying implementing his own system. Denard would be a junior going into the coaches first season, so you are saying he runs it the first two years? Then you Devin for one more year, so you then change the way the Oline reads the Dline to a more pro style...not sure I see a coach wanting to do that. I am also one who doesn't think Denard is a great fit, much less a good fit, for a Pro style offense, if that is what comes in.

We also have no idea if Denard would be ok with this idea or if he would leave.

Mallett didn't stay around for this idea, then again I don't believe he was staying even if Carr had remained coach.

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Look at Michigan's 2012 schedule. (Alabama and away games at Nebraska, ND and Ohio State.) Look at Brandon's comments about marketing the Michigan brand. (In 2.5 seasons, under Rodriguez, they have lost the consecutive winning season and Bowl appearance streaks and face NCAA penalties for the first time in their history.) Look at the schemes and identities of the teams that are successful in the Big Ten right now. (They remind me more of the pre-Rodriguez Michigan teams than the direction under Rodriguez.)

Brandon cannot be successful as AD if he doesn't have a product, he more than any AD at Michigan in a long time understands that. Right now I don't think he has enough to bet his future on.

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Is it just me, or is this living up to the stereotype of Michigan fans? I LOVE watching Michigan football and have grown up watching it, but it seems that when Michigan is doing well, fans want to talk about it. But when it comes to them not doing well, we hear things like "let it play out", "nothing we can do about it".

Isn't part of the fun of college football the fact that we can debate things "during" the season?

But you asked when it is OK to push the fire button. Posters gave their opinions, and you seemingly have turned this into an argument about how bad Michigan's defense is and how bad their B10 record is and making strawman arguments about how people are somehow not sufficiently critical of the U of M football program.

Look, if you believe RichRod should be fired because you have seemingly penciled in losses, or based on 2008, or based on B10 record, or whatever, that is fine. You are free to have whatever opinion you want - nothing wrong with that.

But to starting a thread asking people to engage in a discussion about when it is OK to fire RichRod when you seemingly had already had your mind made up on the topic is intellectually dishonest, IMO. I'd personally have more respect for your position / approach if you simply came out with your opinion from the get go and not try to couch in a 'discussion'.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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Michigan will be favored. The game is at home, Illinois has one of the worst offenses in the Big Ten and our offense has moved the ball against every defense we faced. We just can't turn the ball over and we should win.

In fact, our next 3 opponents are the 3 worst offenses in the Big Ten in terms of total offense, yards per play and scoring offense. And, I'd expect our offense to move the ball against any defense. Basically, if we don't make dumb mistakes, these are the type of teams who match up well with us. They are 1 dimensional teams who are not good on both sides of the ball and it basically sets up a matchup of weakness vs. weakness (their O vs. our D) and strength vs. strength (Our O vs. their D). Its likely, imo, that our strength gives us the advantage.

I'll just say this, if Michigan wins their next three games, I will pretty damn surprised. Maybe not shocked, but damn close to it. I realize winning three in a row and being favored in the next 3 aren't necessarily equivalent....But I'm just saying.

If I was setting an over/under for Michigan's season win total - it would be 6.5, and I'm not sure where I'd fall on that one.

Edited by lionstigersand...

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But you asked when it is OK to push the fire button. Posters gave their opinions, and you seemingly have turned this into an argument about how bad Michigan's defense is and how bad their B10 record is and making strawman arguments about how people are somehow not sufficiently critical of the U of M football program.

Look, if you believe RichRod should be fired because you have seemingly penciled in losses, or based on 2008, or based on B10 record, or whatever, that is fine. You are free to have whatever opinion you want - nothing wrong with that.

But to starting a thread asking people to engage in a discussion about when it is OK to fire RichRod when you seemingly had already had your mind made up on the topic is intellectually dishonest, IMO. I'd personally have more respect for your position / approach if you simply came out with your opinion from the get go and not try to couch in a 'discussion'.

Actually, none of what you said is what I believe. I don't believe he should be fired (outside of maybe losing most of the remainder of the games). I think, by Michigan football standards, his past, and present teams would be enough to have him fired, but I'd rather not see it happen (I think I have stated it in this thread a few times...I think I might have said something about the defense should get him fired, but I've stated several times that I'd rather it not happen...I think...I may be mixing up threads). My debate is with those that think he "deserves" another season. I don't think he deserves squat. He hasn't achieved much of anything, but I don't want to cut and run. I debated with those opinions that either stated the two losses where no big deal, or gave me the, "let's just wait till the end of the season to talk about it" routine.

Now how is that intellectually dishonest? Honestly, please don't be a thread policeman here....just be a participator so that than I have an opinion to go on when you tell me you have less respect for me because of this thread. :disappnt:

Edited by belcherboy

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Do you really think this team isn't better than last year? If that is the case, fine; you are entitled to your opinion. I just think it isn't very practical to bring out the torches and pitchforks just yet. Let's wait and see how he does over the final five big ten games. Who cares about 2008? That season couldn't be more irrelevant to discussing the current state of the team. Compare them to last year. They won the Indiana game and the nd game. That's it. So far this year they beat uconn, nd, and Indiana. They have five more games left. If they lose the rest, then go ahead and push the fire button. I see progress in how the team is playing. It's still a very young team with a lot of potential. You can fire him now if you want. I just don't think it would be based on anything other than emotion and a bruised ego.

They lost to two very good teams. Big deal.

I think the Defense and Special Teams have gotten worse but they definitely are not worse on Offense. I think that this team would battle last years team to a very high scoring game.

I don't know that I look at the rest of their schedule and see any "guaranteed wins" but I see two guaranteed losses. Best case scenario, they finish 3-2 and go 8-4. Worst case, they go 1-4 (beating an injured PSU team), going 6-6. Either way, this is not Michigan Football. I never liked UM because of the fans, but I definitely respected the program and success. Now I don't know what your identity is and that is on RROD. Unfortunately, I am not sure you will be any better next year since I am not impressed with your Defense, Kicking Game or Running Game (and I know Denard was impressive but I am talking "Running Back" Game).

So all in all, if you keep him, I don't see long-term success. If you let him go, it will be a while before you have a team worth the Michigan Mystique that I grew up loathing, but once again, a team I did respect and hoped that MSU would become...

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I think it is stupid at this point to judge whether or not he should be fired. I am going to wait til the next 5 games play out. If they go 6-6, I think it is time to evaluate the situation and possibly consider a change. If they got 7-5 or 8-4, he stays.

The bottom line is this team has showed improvement in wins and statistics from 2008 to 2009, and then again from 2009 to 2010 so far. I think this team is set up to win a lot of games in 2011/2012 if we stay the course.

Why everyone is jumping off the edge after losing to a 7-0 Michigan State team and a 5-1 Iowa team, both expected to compete for the Big Ten is beyond me. Most Michigan fans before the year were saying we will probably go 7-5 or 8-4 this year. Well look, were 5-2 right now and I bet you a lot of people thought 2 of those losses would come against Iowa and Michigan State. Personally, I thought Michigan was going to go 8-4 this year with losses to Iowa, Penn State, Wisconsin, and Ohio State. Well Michigan State turned out better than most thought and Penn State turned out worse. So basically I still think we can get to 8-4, just replace a win against Michigan State with Penn State.

The next 3 games are winnable games. If we are 7-3 or 8-2 going into Wisconsin, that is cool with me, and who knows, maybe we get the upset in one of those game, maybe not. I am going to let this whole thing play out before I get all hot and bothered about a couple of losses.

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Actually, none of what you said is what I believe. I don't believe he should be fired (outside of maybe losing most of the remainder of the games). I think, by Michigan football standards, his past, and present teams would be enough to have him fired, but I'd rather not see it happen (I think I have stated it in this thread a few times...I think I might have said something about the defense should get him fired, but I've stated several times that I'd rather it not happen...I think...I may be mixing up threads).

You might have stated this multiple times, but it seems confusing to me.

Your second sentence reads that you believe he shouldn't be fired.

Your third sentence reads by Michigan standards, he should be fired, independent of what transpires the rest of the season.

So is what you are saying is that you disagree with Michigan standards? Or are you saying you believe he will be fired regardless of what happens? Or are you claiming this to support the notion he is on thin ice?

In any event, at various times in the thread it wasn't all that clear to me what your position was.

My debate is with those that think he "deserves" another season. I don't think he deserves squat. He hasn't achieved much of anything, but I don't want to cut and run.

Nobody in the thread suggested or claimed this. Who are you debating with?

I debated with those opinions that either stated the two losses where no big deal, or gave me the, "let's just wait till the end of the season to talk about it" routine.

I guess I don't know what is so debatable or objectionable about the latter response, as it pertains to whether RichRod should be fired.

If UM reaches 8 wins, which they still can, I think he probably won't be fired. If they only net 6 wins or fewer, which they still can, I think he probably will be fired. So I can understand why a number of posters are saying it is too early to tell. I think that is a pretty fair and reasonable position to take.

Now how is that intellectually dishonest? Honestly, please don't be a thread policeman here....just be a participator so that than I have an opinion to go on when you tell me you have less respect for me because of this thread. :disappnt:

I simply think your position was fixed on this topic before you started the thread, which is fine. I just personally think it is better form or whatever to state that up front, rather than vaguely musing about what it would take for RR to be fired, as if you don't have a fixed position on the topic, then turn around and argue with anyone who didn't offer an opinion you happen to hold. That's just me.

FWIW, it seems like just about everyone holds the same opinion as you as it pertains to whether or not RR should be fired. So I frankly do not understand the purpose of this dialogue. I regret involving myself in it, and won't again.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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I simply think your position was fixed on this topic before you started the thread, which is fine. I just personally think it is better form or whatever to state that up front, rather than vaguely musing about what it would take for RR to be fired, as if you don't have a fixed position on the topic, then turn around and argue with anyone who didn't offer an opinion you happen to hold. That's just me.

Mr B has nailed it.

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If UM reaches 8 wins, which they still can, I think he probably won't be fired. If they only net 6 wins or fewer, which they still can, I think he probably will be fired. So I can understand why a number of posters are saying it is too early to tell. I think that is a pretty fair and reasonable position to take.

Finally, now we can discuss the topic at hand, rather than my intellectual dishonesty or the respect you lost for me when I started this thread! Why do you have to make a thread post into a psychiatric evaluation? Maybe this thread wasn't the best, and I'm sorry I didn't live up to your expectations, but I'm at least glad you are participating in it now, instead of complaining.

I simply think your position was fixed on this topic before you started the thread, which is fine. I just personally think it is better form or whatever to state that up front, rather than vaguely musing about what it would take for RR to be fired, as if you don't have a fixed position on the topic, then turn around and argue with anyone who didn't offer an opinion you happen to hold. That's just me.

We know that it's not "just you". Several people feel that he shouldn't be fired. Of course, you were wrong about my opinion, and felt like you needed to tell me how dishonest I was being. No need to apologize, it seems that is just who you are. (oh, now I'm judging someone..ugh)

FWIW, it seems like just about everyone holds the same opinion as you as it pertains to whether or not RR should be fired. So I frankly do not understand the purpose of this dialogue. I regret involving myself in it, and won't again.

That is fine, but why don't you let the others talk for themselves. We know, from your posts that you think there is "no purpose" to this thread. (You really like to thread crap don't you?)

by the way, the purpose of this thread is to talk about what many national commentators are talking about...how hot is RR's seat right now. I truly am sorry for wasting your time, and "forcing" you to participate.

Edited by belcherboy

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Mr B has nailed it.

I don't think he got it, but at least we can mark both of you down as "I don't want to debate whether he deserves to be fired". Which is fine, my position seems to be "intellectually dishonest" or whatever that means. I'm probably tricking myself, and it probably stems from a bad childhood memory that I have suppressed!

Ask Bigglesworth, he has figured me out and has let me know how disappointed he is in me several times in this thread!

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I don't think he got it, but at least we can mark both of you down as "I don't want to debate whether he deserves to be fired". Which is fine, my position seems to be "intellectually dishonest" or whatever that means. I'm probably tricking myself, and it probably stems from a bad childhood memory that I have suppressed!

Ask Bigglesworth, he has figured me out and has let me know how disappointed he is in me several times in this thread!

I agree with Bigglesworth in that I believe you want him fired and are posting as if you don't know if you do. Yet subsequent posts responses seem to indicate that you do know what you want.

As of today I do not want him fired.

However,I believe his status as UM coach will be determined in the next three games.

I believe that Brandon is looking at far more than W/L. When Denard was playing well the positive media attn was everywhere, well, maybe not in Detroit. The winged helmet was being shown and talked about in a positive manner everywhere. Of course that has now changed and the topic is RR security, understandably so.

Brandon stated he wanted to see the inner workings of the team, from chemistry to progress on the field that may not show up n W/L. While we lost to two superior teams this week the offense continued to move the ball against both and had left points on the field against both. RR offense will work in the big ten. The defense is terrible, and needs the one thing RR may not have; time. Time to gain experience.

So I will see what happens the rest of the season, the debate will be decided on the field. As someone else said, if they lose to PSU then RR is in major trouble and I would doubt he will be back.

Now, go ahead and twist and spin this into something I didn't say which seems to be your style, at least in this thread.

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I agree with Bigglesworth in that I believe you want him fired and are posting as if you don't know if you do. Yet subsequent posts responses seem to indicate that you do know what you want.

Well, I'm sorry I gave you that impression. I don't want the man fired right now...I was simply trying to gauge where everyone was on their feelings about him being the head coach, and when they would feel a need to cut and run.

As of today I do not want him fired.

Me too!

However,I believe his status as UM coach will be determined in the next three games.

I agree as well!

I believe that Brandon is looking at far more than W/L. When Denard was playing well the positive media attn was everywhere, well, maybe not in Detroit. The winged helmet was being shown and talked about in a positive manner everywhere. Of course that has now changed and the topic is RR security, understandably so.

Brandon stated he wanted to see the inner workings of the team, from chemistry to progress on the field that may not show up n W/L. While we lost to two superior teams this week the offense continued to move the ball against both and had left points on the field against both. RR offense will work in the big ten. The defense is terrible, and needs the one thing RR may not have; time. Time to gain experience.

I just have a TOUGH time thinking that experience will fix the woes of the defense. It will help, but after watching games like UMass and Indiana, it is hard to imagine it getting any worse. The defense is TERRIBLE, and even if it improves, it has a LONG way to go from being TERRIBLE to even being bad.

I think Brandon would be wise to stick it out as long as he can, unless RR tanks 3-4 of the last 5 games (which is VERY possible with this defense). Brandon isn't going to be judged by RR, he will be judged by the next coach. If RR turns the corner, Brandon is a genius for keeping him, if RR fails, he will hold no blame IMO. It is a win/win for him.

So I will see what happens the rest of the season, the debate will be decided on the field. As someone else said, if they lose to PSU then RR is in major trouble and I would doubt he will be back.

Now, go ahead and twist and spin this into something I didn't say which seems to be your style, at least in this thread.

I'm sorry if you felt I twisted your words, that was not my point. My point is that I've watched the Michigan games with other Michigan fans that were going CRAZY over a 5-0 start. I kept reminding them that we are barely beating teams like UMass and Indiana. Regardless, they were buying into the Heisman talk, and the top 15 ranking HARD. The fact is, we were barely beating clearly inferior teams for most of those 5 wins. Now that we have lost 2 games, those same guys that were EXCITED about the start have taken the, "well we just have to see how the season progresses before judging this team" approach. My opinion is, "No we don't, did you not watch the previous two games before the two losses???" Michigan is overrated this year, and the same thing happened last year after a 4-0 start. They just aren't very good. They haven't been good all season. They have won some big games, and deserve some credit for it, but overall, Michigan just isn't that good, and it has 100% to do with balance. RR has not created a balanced team, and I don't see why it is wrong to judge that after 7 games. That is just me!

Now feel free to continue to agree with someone who says that I'm being intellectually dishonest and basically being a "liar" about my intentions of this thread.

Edited by belcherboy

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Mallett didn't stay around for this idea, then again I don't believe he was staying even if Carr had remained coach.

Ryan wasn't making any friends in Ann Arbor, and he knew it - he was gone regardless of who the coach was.

I think one of Rich Rod's mistakes was he implemented his offense on a team that wasn't ready for it the first year, he should have been a bit more gradual about it. I think the next coach won't do that, I think the next guy will look at what he has and determine how much they can modify it and run more of a hybrid of spread vs. pro style - most programs are doing that now anyway.

I remember about a year ago when I mentioned Jim Harbaugh's name as a possibility and people blasted me.

By the way, expect the NCAA decision any day now (maybe even today). That might be a factor in Rich Rod's future too. They could possibly come down very hard on Michigan. I don't think they will, but you can't predict the NCAA.

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Well that's my point, why is Illinois a "should beat" team? Why do you think Illinois is a game Michigan should win? I personally think it is a crap shoot! At least by watching both teams play (I've only watched Illinois for a large chunk of the OSU game, and a little bit of the MSU game...I've watched every Michigan game)

Illinois put up 6 points against MSU and blew out Penn State. Michigan put up 14 against MSU, 28 against IOWA who had been giving up only 10 a game. Michigan should beat Illinois, Penn State and Purdue and should lose to Wisconsin and OSU, making them 8-4. If they lose one of those 3 (purdue, illinois, penn state) and get blown off the field against OSU, Wisonsin and a bowl opponent, I think they look long and hard and what to do this offseason. I think at the very least you have to change Defensive Coordinators just to show you actually care about the results on the field.

I think if they go 7-5 they have to at least put up a fight against OSU, Wisc and the bowl opponent.

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that being said I'm more fed up with fans who "drank the kool aid" and are mad that we lost the top 15 teams MSU and Iowa back to back and think that's a reason to fire the coach, than I am with the coach at this point. Those 2 teams are BETTER than Michigan.

I think whoever comes in after Rich Rod if he doesn't finish in the top 4 in the big ten next season will be someone closer to Harbaugh in style who will adapt to what his players do best and not make us start over.

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Illinois put up 6 points against MSU

Did you watch the game? I think they played MSU better than Michigan did (they were up at halftime)...of course Michigan dropped 2 TD passes, so it is hard to tell. Also Illinois was moving the ball WELL for much of the Ohio State game. Ohio State's defense may be overhyped, but I think they are still arguably the #1 or #2 defense in the Big Ten. That scares me with Michigan's last ranked defense. I hope I'm wrong, but anyone looking past Illinois may be in for rude awakening.

Michigan should beat Illinois, Penn State and Purdue and should lose to Wisconsin and OSU, making them 8-4. If they lose one of those 3 (purdue, illinois, penn state) and get blown off the field against OSU, Wisonsin and a bowl opponent, I think they look long and hard and what to do this offseason. I think at the very least you have to change Defensive Coordinators just to show you actually care about the results on the field.

I think if they go 7-5 they have to at least put up a fight against OSU, Wisc and the bowl opponent.

I think Michigan should beat Penn State and Purdue. I think they could beat Illinois, but I'm not betting on it. They should get KILLED by Wisconsin and OSU, but you never know, they have the ability to have a shootout....even without Denard.

Again, I would not be upset if they kept RR after a 7-5 record. I would not be happy with him by any means, but we've come this far and I'm down with going the distance with the guy for one more year. If he loses 4 or 5 of the final games, it is time to move on.

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Last time I checked, the winner of the game was determined at the end of the game, not at halftime. Illinois still scored 6 points and the3y are ranked in the 90's in every offensive category except rushing (35) and fieldgoals(10) and you can't keep up with Michigan's offense getting fieldgoals. Illinois has a redshirt freshman QB who's numbers are a lot worse than Tate's last year as a true freshman. They played a good game offensively against OSU, but they are still a bottom tier team just like they were projected to be. Their 3 wins are even less impressive than Michigan's victories. (Penn State, Northern Ill and Southern Ill)

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Last time I checked, the winner of the game was determined at the end of the game, not at halftime. Illinois still scored 6 points and the3y are ranked in the 90's in every offensive category except rushing (35) and fieldgoals(10) and you can't keep up with Michigan's offense getting fieldgoals. Illinois has a redshirt freshman QB who's numbers are a lot worse than Tate's last year as a true freshman. They played a good game offensively against OSU, but they are still a bottom tier team just like they were projected to be. Their 3 wins are even less impressive than Michigan's victories. (Penn State, Northern Ill and Southern Ill)

The problem I have with the Illinois offensive stats is that their 3 losses (I believe HALF their games) have come against VERY good defensive teams. I think their offensive stats are little misleading, in the same way that Michigan's offensive stats are a little misleading by the poor defenses they played in the first 5 games.

Illinois' three losses came against teams that combined have ONLY 1 loss.

I like your enthusiasm! I'm just not convinced that Illinois isn't a pretty good team, that has had the misfortune of a TOUGH schedule (Missouri, MSU, and Ohio State) We'll see in a few weeks! I see them as being a strong, middle of the pack B10 team above Indiana, Minnesota, PSU, maybe even NW (although they have played VERY well this year). At least I don't see them being any more bottom tier than Michigan at this point.

by the way, Missouri is ranked #29, MSU #28, and OSU #6 for team defense. I can understand why their offensive numbers have hurt like they have, when half your games are played against top 30 defenses.

Edited by belcherboy

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I thought Demens did better than Obi, like that is saying much, and want to see if that improvement continues. I believe Johnson played the hybrid position for a few plays as well and didn't look terrible at it.

Unlike some here and elsewhere i think they have some good young talent on D, problem is they are young. Most D players really take off as Jr and Sr, yes there are exceptions to this, UM doesn't have a lot of good talented Jr and Sr on the d side of the ball and they are paying the price for it.

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The problem I have with the Illinois offensive stats is that their 3 losses (I believe HALF their games) have come against VERY good defensive teams. I think their offensive stats are little misleading, in the same way that Michigan's offensive stats are a little misleading by the poor defenses they played in the first 5 games.

Illinois' three losses came against teams that combined have ONLY 1 loss.

I like your enthusiasm! I'm just not convinced that Illinois isn't a pretty good team, that has had the misfortune of a TOUGH schedule (Missouri, MSU, and Ohio State) We'll see in a few weeks!

So how were our offensive stats against Iowa and their top 10 defense?

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For some perspective... If Michigan plays the season out at an above average case, they are looking at about 7-5 plus a bowl. 7-5 is Lloyd Carr's worst record. The standard should be higher and frankly RR should be gone if they can't go 9-3 on a regular basis. If they wait too long, little/big brother will swap.

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