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SpartanValor

#16 Michigan State @ #17 Michigan

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true, but apparently that's all Lloyd Carr's fault. Oh, and I've been told that the players transferring doesn't matter because they can't beat out walk ons.:cheeky:

I'm sick of Michigan fans on this site making excuses for Rodriguez. He's the head MFer in charge, the buck stops with him. It's his defense. It's his program. It's his team that's on probation. It's his recruiting classes that aren't working. It's his talent that isn't developing.

All. On. Him.

How many people are even making excuses for him? I think our argument revolved more around our opinions on guys who don't coach at Michigan. Rodriguez is mostly to blame for the horrible defense, and if he doesn't turn it around at least somewhat by next year (or have the most ridiculous offense of all time) he's going to get fired.

I've always been a Rodriguez supporter, but if this year ends like last year did, or it doesn't but next year doesn't show any improvement, then he should be fired. 100% agree.

I think the only thing we really disagree about is the transfer situation, I wouldn't say I'm happy about it, but I don't think any of the players would have made the slightest difference. Justin Turner was behind the awful freshman corners on the depth chart, every report was that he was out of shape and terrible. Well before he transferred people were freaking out because everything about him screamed total bust. Same thing for Vlad Emilien. To me the fact that the players who haven't transferred aren't showing much if any improvement is a far, far, bigger concern.

As for some other coaches brought up: Mark Richt - About to be fired in Georgia, recruits more thugs than Meyer or Dantonio. No thanks.

Les Miles - Talked about this enough

Harbaugh - Good coach, but is he any more proven than Rodriguez was when we hired him? I don't think so, he's still my easy top choice if Rodriguez goes though.

I think Richt would probably fit the mold of what Michigan fans want. From what I hear he is a class act. He has been very successful at Georgia, but from what I hear his hot seat is hotter that RR's right now. Would be interesting to see how it plays out.

Everything I've heard about Richt is that he's a nice guy off the field, but his program's arrest record makes MSU and Florida look clean.

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He was never offered the job. LSU knew what was happening and offered him a deal making him the highest paid coach in college football, and said you have a day to accept it or it's off the table. All the while his team was about to play in the national championship game.

Miles' agent tried desperately to get in touch with Bill Martin, but Martin was on his yacht entertaining alumni and could not be reached. Miles signed the extension with LSU.

You're probably thinking of Greg Schiano at Rutgers who was offered the job, accepted the job, then changed his mind the next day and went back to Rutgers (and wait for the Penn State job to open up).

I think I'm actually combining the Martin on the Yacht thing with the Schiano thing in some weird way.

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I've already outlined the Hongbit nightmare scenario.

RRod does just well enough to warrant another season or maybe even two; which coincides with Pete Carroll's Seattle experiment ending badly. UM instantly becomes a perennial national championship contender and I never post here again.

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I've already outlined the Hongbit nightmare scenario.

RRod does just well enough to warrant another season or maybe even two; which coincides with Pete Carroll's Seattle experiment ending badly. UM instantly becomes a perennial national championship contender and I never post here again.

As long as we don't get banned from bowl games for 2 years right?

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I've already outlined the Hongbit nightmare scenario.

RRod does just well enough to warrant another season or maybe even two; which coincides with Pete Carroll's Seattle experiment ending badly. UM instantly becomes a perennial national championship contender and I never post here again.

Wow, I was actually thinking about this yesterday...

I think RichRod will win enough to warrant another year, but next year .. 7-5 won't cut it, and he'll be a on very short leash, which might be hard to live up to. I also don't think PC will work out in Seattle, and that Michigan will fire RichRod and offer a truckload of money to PC, who'll take the job ... haha, how comical...

...and how awesome would that be ;)

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Wow, I was actually thinking about this yesterday...

I think RichRod will win enough to warrant another year, but next year .. 7-5 won't cut it, and he'll be a on very short leash, which might be hard to live up to. I also don't think PC will work out in Seattle, and that Michigan will fire RichRod and offer a truckload of money to PC, who'll take the job ... haha, how comical...

...and how awesome would that be ;)

As long as we are not giving recruits cars to play for us.

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More insanity. Stanford lost 11 games the year before Harbaugh got there. Three years later they're a top ten team.

In Harbaugh's 3rd year, Stanford went 8-5.

In Rodriguez' 3rd year, Michigan is 5-1.

Rodriguez's team beat Florida the year before he got there, he then proceeded to sacrifice any chance that team had of being even moderately successful in order to install his offense, thereby gutting any team spirit that team had. he didn't care, getting his offense installed was the key, **** the guys that were there.

His team beat an 9-4 Florida team. Then, Mike Hart, Mario Manningham, Chad Henne, Adrian Arrington, Jake Long, Shawn Crable left the program. I see no reason to think any of them left because Rich Rodriguez told them to **** off because he was installing a spread offense.

I think you're trying to paper over all nuance and detail in order to make a basic point that Rodriguez hasn't won therefore he's terrible.

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Man this needs it's own thread...blue on blue crime..I've read about this..

We like to keep it out of the frats, and on the message boards

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In Harbaugh's 3rd year, Stanford went 8-5.

In Rodriguez' 3rd year, Michigan is 5-1.

Harbaugh went 8-5....AT STANFORD

If Rodriguez goes 8-5 at Michigan (which is different than Stanford, I can't fathom why you are equating the difficulty of winning at Michigan with the difficulty of winning at Stanford, but maybe that's just your nuance that I don't understand) then he's safe. If he doesn't, then he's in trouble.

His team beat an 9-4 Florida team. Then, Mike Hart, Mario Manningham, Chad Henne, Adrian Arrington, Jake Long, Shawn Crable left the program. I see no reason to think any of them left because Rich Rodriguez told them to **** off because he was installing a spread offense.

And then Rodriguez alienated half the damn team. Remember all those seniors who bitched about practice to the Free Press? ask them how they feel about Rich Rod.

I think you're trying to paper over all nuance and detail in order to make a basic point that Rodriguez hasn't won therefore he's terrible.

Aren't you doing the exact same thing only to say that it isn't Rodriguez's fault? Your blaming Lloyd's last few years for everything that Rodriguez has done.

Is it Lloyd's fault Michigan is on probation? Do you put any of that on Rodriguez? Are you very happy about that too?

I want Rodriguez to win as much as the rest of you, probably more than most of you, but I don't think he's done a good job up to this point and find it puzzling that anyone would think he has.

I've been watching Michigan play since the late 70s and this is the lowest point in the history of the program. Why are we praising the coach that put them at that point? I don't think michigan should lower their standards because RichRod has had a few things go against him. That's tough, you get around them and you win. He hasn't done that yet. which isn't to say he can't or won't, but he hasn't yet.

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As long as we are not giving recruits cars to play for us.

I don't want to burst your bubble mike, but there's a reason why every Michigan player who gets pulled over is driving a Ford SUV...:wink:

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It's important to understand that Stanford is one of the only D1 schools that do not change their admission standards for athletes.

Admission to the school is a done deal when an NCAA qualifier accepts an offer at pretty much every other place. Not the case at Stanford. Even a 5* star player has still got to earn his way in the university in the classroom. They lose guys every year that commit but are later turned down by admissions.

Edited by Hongbit

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It's important to understand that Stanford is one of the only D1 schools that do not change their admission standards for athletes.

Admission to the school is a done deal when an NCAA qualifier accepts an offer at pretty much every other place. Not the case at Stanford. Even a 5* star player has still got to earn his way in the university in the classroom. They lose guys every year that commit but are later turned down by admissions.

Harbaugh has sort of gotten around this by just offering tons of guys scholarships without finding out whether they will qualify first or not, then picking and choosing from the survivors

Of course, Rodriguez has done the same thing with often disastrous results at Michigan

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Harbaugh went 8-5....AT STANFORD

If Rodriguez goes 8-5 at Michigan (which is different than Stanford, I can't fathom why you are equating the difficulty of winning at Michigan with the difficulty of winning at Stanford, but maybe that's just your nuance that I don't understand) then he's safe. If he doesn't, then he's in trouble.

I think I told you why I'm equating them, because both coaches started with their teams in the dump. 8-5 at Stanford is nice but Ty Willingham was in that neighborhood most of his time at Stanford in the 90s, there are enough smart football players throughout the prep ranks to field a good team in Palo Alto regularly.

And then Rodriguez alienated half the damn team. Remember all those seniors who bitched about practice to the Free Press? ask them how they feel about Rich Rod.

I don't recall it being near to half the team

Aren't you doing the exact same thing only to say that it isn't Rodriguez's fault? Your blaming Lloyd's last few years for everything that Rodriguez has done.

When you look at the rosters, I don't see how criticism is justified to this extent. Rodriguez hasn't had time for his recruits to become upperclassmen and Carr didn't leave behind much, and now the team has a lack of quality on defense because the experienced guys are without talent and the talented guys are too young for anyone to expect them all to contribute.

Is it Lloyd's fault Michigan is on probation? Do you put any of that on Rodriguez? Are you very happy about that too?

I don't care about them being on probation, its a slap on the wrist for incidental violations. Nice fodder for sports journalists I guess but it means nothing.

I've been watching Michigan play since the late 70s and this is the lowest point in the history of the program. Why are we praising the coach that put them at that point? I don't think michigan should lower their standards because RichRod has had a few things go against him. That's tough, you get around them and you win. He hasn't done that yet. which isn't to say he can't or won't, but he hasn't yet.

5-1 with the leading Heisman contender, a true sophomore, starting at QB is not the lowest point in this program's history.

The lowest point was RR's first year though. I don't agree that the expectation when you have Nick Sheridan as your starting QB is "get around [things that go against the team] and you win." Thats what you strive for but a coach shouldn't be under fire largely from not living up to that goal. Neither Harbaugh nor Miles would have gone .500 with the roster Rodriguez had in his first season, IMO. And from that point on we've seen a simple enough progression: 3-9, 5-7 (true frosh QBs), 5-1 now.. maybe 8-5/9-4 at the end of the year and then big expectations next season. That's how it goes when you start from the bottom, just like at Stanford.

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Not to fight Buddha's battles but: If you don't see taking over 11 loss Stanford as being a different universe away from winning 9 and beating Florida/Tebow in a bowl at Michigan, I don't think I can help you.

2. Harbaugh and Miles easily would have gone .500 in RR's first season, because they would have kept Ryan Mallett. Threet and Sheridan running the read option was like watching a blind man give his shot at archery. How the hell did they even win 3?!?

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2. Harbaugh and Miles easily would have gone .500 in RR's first season, because they would have kept Ryan Mallett. Threet and Sheridan running the read option was like watching a blind man give his shot at archery. How the hell did they even win 3?!?

See that is where you lose me....claiming Mallett would have stayed under the other guys. Mallett was pretty much gone under Carr, not sure why he would stay under these other guys who he didn't know instead of going to where he wanted to go originally...Arkansas, who had a certain QB in front of him when he committed. Then that guy left...hhmmm where did he go..Hongbit little help??

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Not to fight Buddha's battles but: If you don't see taking over 11 loss Stanford as being a different universe away from winning 9 and beating Florida/Tebow in a bowl at Michigan, I don't think I can help you.

Explain to me how this is a more accurate way to caliber of team Rich Rodriguez took over than actually looking at the players he inherited. The focus on Michigan beating Florida the year before is fundamentally misleading because that team had a bunch of guys that graduated or went pro. They went 3-9 the following year because the talent that RR had was.. lacking. Like at Stanford.

2. Harbaugh and Miles easily would have gone .500 in RR's first season, because they would have kept Ryan Mallett. Threet and Sheridan running the read option was like watching a blind man give his shot at archery. How the hell did they even win 3?!?

I phrased it to exclude Mallett staying because I didn't care to go down this road. I think Mallett was gone either way but it hardly matters in assessing RR, it's not like he told Mallett to leave. He was hired and Mallett said, I'm gone. How RR performed subsequently is the important thing.

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I'd prefer not to jump into this harbaugh argument, but we all saw the talent on the field in 2008. That team was nowhere near the team that beat Florida (the same team that lost to app state and Oregon by getting gashed on defense). While there is no doubt that rr had his hand in some of the underclassmen leaving due to his scheme or personality, that 2008 team terrible. I don't care if you blame him for that. I am expressly ignoring it. If you merely start with 2008, the team has improved each year. Yeah the defense still sucks. All of this has been discussed in detail before. I'm just saying it's inaccurate to look at the 2007 team to provide a baseline for what rr had at the beginning.

All that being said, I'm not happy with where the team is now after two plus years of rr. We should be better.

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If you want to go back to what RR inherited on offense, btw

The Golden Age Of Tin | mgoblog (written Oct 15 2008)

Yes, exactly like the West Virginia spread:

  • WVU, 2007: 26% pass, 74% run.
  • Michigan, 2008: 46% pass, 54% run.

This only looks "exactly like the West Virginia" spread if you have literally no memory for play proportions and sequencing.

I won't belabor you further with the column; it's a pastiche of the usual unrealistic complaints like "Rodriguez ran off Mallett!" that remain as wrong as they were when Rosenberg brought them up earlier this year and I fisked it. I only bring it up to highlight the weirdest criticism leveled at Rodriguez this season: leaving a semblance of Lloyd Carr and Mike Debord's pro-style offense would have been an improvement.

This is preposterous in the following ways:

Last year the Michigan offense was bad. Injuries had something to do with it, sure, but Mallett played less than half the year, and the other half of the year they had a senior Chad Henne. Mike Hart played about nine games. The #1 pick in the NFL draft was the left tackle, and Mario Manningham and Adrian Arrington were standout wide receivers.

With all these advantages, Michigan finished 68th in total offense, 10th in the Big Ten. Can you imagine what the offense would look like with freshmen everywhere and nothing resembling a competent quarterback? Yes, you can, it looks like last year's Wisconsin game minus the 97-yard Manningham touchdown. Or last year's Ohio State game. This isn't exactly the Greatest Show On Turf we're ditching.

You cannot make a good offense out of these parts.

The best quarterback was a freshman so shaky in camp that a guy who would look out of place on most I-AA teams got the starting nod; he has been wildly inaccurate downfield and is charting horribly in UFR. This would not improve in a different offense. Different offenses do not make it easier to throw accurate passes, especially when the screens have been problematic.

There is one returning OL starter and six plausible starters, one of whom (Schilling) seemed destined for a career as anything other than a backup before massive attrition forced them into the starting lineup. The tailbacks are freshmen, injured, or fumblers. The wideouts are probably the worst crop since… uh… Michigan started throwing?

Meanwhile, Cory Zirbel, Carlos Brown, Mark Huyge, Mark Ortmann, Carson Butler, Martavious Odoms, Junior Hemingway, Steven Threet and Greg Mathews have all missed time with injury or stupidity (Butler's punch; whoever decided Sheridan was a plausible starter). A walk-on saw time at left tackle.

Nobody on the team even knows the Carr offense. Your skill position starters are five freshmen (Odoms, McGuffie, Threet, Koger, Stonum) and a junior.

…except the linemen, who are pretty much doing the same thing anyway. There are slight differences between Michigan's zone stretch this year and its zone stretch a year ago; their main problem is not being unable to understand the scheme but being unable to execute it because they are bad at football.

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Harbaugh has sort of gotten around this by just offering tons of guys scholarships without finding out whether they will qualify first or not, then picking and choosing from the survivors

Of course, Rodriguez has done the same thing with often disastrous results at Michigan

It wasn't all that long ago that you were preaching the onerous admissions standards at Michigan, and how that greatly hampered Lloyd's recruiting opportunities. It was never true then, and it isn't true now. If you're NCAA qualified and good, Michigan will get you in. Same as OSU, PU, MSU, Florida, Tulsa, San Diego State etc etc...

Also, your first paragraph implies that Harbaugh has been "over-verbaling" and then picking and choosing. Is that actually true?

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It wasn't all that long ago that you were preaching the onerous admissions standards at Michigan, and how that greatly hampered Lloyd's recruiting opportunities. It was never true then, and it isn't true now. If you're NCAA qualified and good, Michigan will get you in. Same as OSU, PU, MSU, Florida, Tulsa, San Diego State etc etc...

Also, your first paragraph implies that Harbaugh has been "over-verbaling" and then picking and choosing. Is that actually true?

Demar Dorsey has something to say about that.

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I have always believed that Jim Harbaugh's ultimate goal is the NFL not CFB.

This team will still reach 8-4 and Buddha's ranting aside RR will still be here.

boy I sure hope so

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I think this Harbaugh vs Rodriguez argument is kind of dumb right now. Both went into crappy situations, both have steadily made their teams better. Aside from that the circumstances are different and each coaches performance should be judged separately.

Personally, I don't want to think about coaching changes right now. As of today, Rich Rodriguez is the head coach of Michigan and will be for at least the next 6 games. We are 5-1, and I am going to wait til the end of the season to think about where the coaching stands. I am not going to change my entire view on the situation based on one loss, as painful as that loss may be.

If Michigan wins 7 or 8 games this year I feel as if Rich should get another year as he has demonstrated that program has been making progress. If we have a 2009 like collapse, than yeah, I will be on board with possibly searching for new options.

At the end of the day David Brandon will be the one who makes this decision. So far, at least in my view, he has demonstrated that he is a level headed smart athletic director. We will see what happens.

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