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Dunkin Darvin

Off-season moves starting to take shape

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You guys got me intrigued about this whole DH history thing.

Here's a listing of Tigers who DH'd for at least 200 at-bats or 50 games, since 1978:

78: Staub 642 AB (.273/.347/.435) 117 OPS+

79: Staub 246 AB (.236/.331/.402) 95 OPS+

80: Summers 64 games, overall (.297/.393/.504) 143 OPS+

82: Ivie 259 AB (.232/.299/.448) 102 OPS+

82: Turner 50 games, overall (.248/.310/.376) 88 OPS+

83: Gibson 66 games, overall (.227/.320/.414) 104 OPS+

84: Evans 62 games, overall (.232/.353/.384) 105 OPS+

87: Madlock 64 games, overall (.279/.351/.460) 117 OPS+

88: Evans 72 games, overall (.208/.337/.380) 104 OPS+

89: Moreland 51 games, overall (.299/.357/.396) 115 OPS+

90: Bergman 51 games, overall (.278/.375/.366) 108 OPS+ (yes, he had more DH time than Sheets)

93: Gibson 76 games, overall (.261/.337/.432) 107 OPS+

94: Gibson 56 games, overall (.276/.358/.548) 129 OPS+

95: Gibson 63 games, overall (.260/.358/.449) 109 OPS+

95: Fielder 58 games, overall (.243/.346/.471) 111 OPS+

96: Williams 52 games, overall (.200/.267/.307) 45 OPS+

97: Hamelin 97 games, overall (.270/.366/.487) 122 OPS+

00: Polonia 51 games, overall (.273/.325/.416) 91 OPS+

01: Palmer 57 games, overall (.222/.317/.426) 100 OPS+

02: Simon 65 games, overall (.301/.320/.459) 112 OPS+

03: Young 75 games, overall (.297/.372/.537) 144 OPS+

04: Young 74 games, overall (.272/.336/.481) 114 OPS+

05: Young 71 games, overall (.271/.325/.471) 111 OPS+

07: Sheff 119 games, overall (.265/.378/.462) 119 OPS+

08: Sheff 106 games, overall (.225/.326/.400) 89 OPS+

09: Thames 50 games, overall (.252/.323/.453) 99 OPS+

10: Damon 97 games, overall (.271/.355/.401) 106 OPS+

Edited by DaYooperASBDT

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What would the Yankees want for Jesus Montero?

Posada isn't exactly young. Cervelli has a career 683 OPS. Not sure they'll trade from a weak position.

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Posada isn't exactly young. Cervelli has a career 683 OPS. Not sure they'll trade from a weak position.

Is Montero going to stick around at catcher? IIRC, there was word that he was projected as more of a DH/1B type.

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If our choice is Dunn @DH and Maggs in RF, or Werth in RF and Maggs at DH, I'll take the latter. And a LH hitting LF to platoon with Raburn.

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If our choice is Dunn @DH and Maggs in RF, or Werth in RF and Maggs at DH, I'll take the latter. And a LH hitting LF to platoon with Raburn.

I think we will end up making some kind of trade also. I said before that I wouldn't mind going for Josh Willingham or a guy who is about to get a new contract on a team that won't really be able to afford him.

Get Willingham and Werth, and let Raburn DH...maybe pick up a player like Hawpe (a cheap veteran...a la Thome signing with the Twins) to platoon with Raburn or sign Dunn and have Raburn play a corner outfield position.

Jackson - CF

Rhymes/Sizemore - 2B

Willingham - RF/LF

Cabrera - 1B

Werth/Dunn RF/DH

Raburn - RF/LF/DH

Peralta - SS

Inge - 3B

Avila - C

And even though Magglio is a fan favorite and he has done some big things for the Tigers...I would rather them go for Matsui/Ortiz/Burrell (less so Burrell) just because of the injury issues.

Edited by EchO

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Ugh .. Josh Willingham, are you serious?

And what is wrong with him? He has statistically been a top 20-30 outfielder the last few years.

Based on OPS:

2010: #9

2009: #17

2008: #35

2007: #32

2006: #26

Defensively he is comparable to Ordonez. So what is it about him that you don't like...injury history?

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As I said, Ordonez was a more established hitter, because he was better at a younger age; as I said, Werth was a late-bloomer and had his injury problems at the ages of 26 - 27 (several years ago now, and irrelevant in terms of whether or not to get Werth now) whereas Ordonez's were at 29-30 just before we acquired him, so the injuries were very relevant - and it still worked out well.

Two points. First, most didn't like the Ordonez signing at the time. While it has worked out ok for us, that was hardly a sure thing at the time (although some of that was the fact he was coming off a horrific injury), and thus I'm not sure that that is a strategy that we necessarily want to be duplicating. Second, doesn't the fact that Werth is a late-bloomer make it less likely that he'll continue to be as productive into his late-30s as Ordonez?

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I'm excited about Damon's quotes to the NY Post that were cited in the Detroit papers this morning. The main quote was that it sounds like they told him they were going after a more prototypical, powerful DH. He actually used Adam Dunn has an example.

I hate myself for doing it, but, "get 'im Dunn".

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Two points. First, most didn't like the Ordonez signing at the time. While it has worked out ok for us, that was hardly a sure thing at the time (although some of that was the fact he was coming off a horrific injury), and thus I'm not sure that that is a strategy that we necessarily want to be duplicating. Second, doesn't the fact that Werth is a late-bloomer make it less likely that he'll continue to be as productive into his late-30s as Ordonez?

both players spent 5 pretty undistinguished yrs in the minors, hitting the majors at 23. Both were 25 when they first put up an OPS roughly equal to their career average. Maggs peaked higher, but I don't think anyone argues that Werth is as skilled a hitter as Maggs. So I'm not sure that you can say Werth is so much a 'late bloomer' as compared to Maggs.

Edited by Gehringer_2
revised for clarity

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Second, doesn't the fact that Werth is a late-bloomer make it less likely that he'll continue to be as productive into his late-30s as Ordonez?

This is a more interesting general question. It certainly is true that really great hitters are able to play older (barring injury). Just look at the average retirement age of past BA champions, it's much older than the average hitter (and you have to keep pitchers completely separate -they do play to significantly greater age on average than hitters).

This is easy to understand in term of genetic allotment of vision/reflex skill. If you have more than you need to be an adequate ML hitter, it makes sense both that you will be an above average hitter and that you can tolerate more age induced loss of those skills before you fall below ML level.

But what that implies about the front end of a career is probably less clear. Since hitting is the vision/reflex thing plus strength, it does make sense that a player with a lot of the former can reach ML level even before his body reaches peak strength, which would allow him to be an 'early bloomer'.

But coaching, how fast you actually learn from minor league experience (game IQ if you like), college vs no college, all the chance circumstances of who is in a minor league system ahead of you and how you were advanced suggest that there could be a lot of variables on the front end of a career that might muddy any easy conclusions on the implications of being a 'late bloomer'

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This is a more interesting general question. It certainly is true that really great hitters are able to play older (barring injury). Just look at the average retirement age of past BA champions, it's much older than the average hitter (and you have to keep pitchers completely separate -they do play to significantly greater age on average than hitters).

This is easy to understand in term of genetic allotment of vision/reflex skill. If you have more than you need to be an adequate ML hitter, it makes sense both that you will be an above average hitter and that you can tolerate more age induced loss of those skills before you fall below ML level.

But what that implies about the front end of a career is probably less clear. Since hitting is the vision/reflex thing plus strength, it does make sense that a player with a lot of the former can reach ML level even before his body reaches peak strength, which would allow him to be an 'early bloomer'.

But coaching, how fast you actually learn from minor league experience (game IQ if you like), college vs no college, all the chance circumstances of who is in a minor league system ahead of you and how you were advanced suggest that there could be a lot of variables on the front end of a career that might muddy any easy conclusions on the implications of being a 'late bloomer'

So could you also say as the batter gets older he has more knowledge of the game which might make up for that strength/reflex loss? Was Rod Allen right about being a professional hitter?

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Let Dunn DH 54 games, RF 54 games, 1B 54 games.

If Cabrera whines about DH-ing, Leyland can put a cigarette out on his cheek or something.

Thats even worse than letting him play either RF or 1B a for a whole season because he couldnt get used to each position. He would be SUPER sloppy on the field, or something worse depending on how you view his fielding.

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I'd have Dunn mostly DH, play some 1B (to rest Cabrera, who'll DH), and some OF during away interleague games.

Those games he doesn't start, he'd be a great pinch hitter. And this is where he'll get all of his days off.

You do get days off!

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Magglio update: "I want to stay in Detroit"

Venezuelan baseball writer Augusto Cardenas of Diario Panorama talked earlier this week with Magglio Ordonez, who said the ankle is at 90 percent and he hopes to be in playing shape in December and possibly playing winter ball for the first time since after the 2002 season.

Of bigger importance to Tigers fans was a quote from Ordonez saying there's a good chance he returns to Detroit.

"I want to stay in Detroit, obviously," Ordonez said, as reported by Cardenas on his twitter account @ACardenas13. "I have my friends, my teammates. I know the organization has been very good to me and the fans have treated me great. ... I think there is a great chance to stay in Detroit, but let's see what happens."

Beck's Blog: Magglio update: "I want to stay in Detroit"

Cardenas actually thinks there's a chance we offer Maggs abritration :confused::dead:

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I think we add two big bats, and re-sign Maggs. Maggs can bat 2nd, and be very productive in that spot.

I don't see the Tigers adding two big bats. There are only three on the free agent market, and the Tigers haven't got great trade bait for whichever big bats there might be on the trading block.

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Thats even worse than letting him play either RF or 1B a for a whole season because he couldnt get used to each position. He would be SUPER sloppy on the field, or something worse depending on how you view his fielding.
He's already super sloppy, lol. May as well spread the damage around a little? :ponder:

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