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Dunkin Darvin

Off-season moves starting to take shape

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Will he be overpaid? Yes. But you have to overpay players to compete in baseball.

All I am saying is that if Tony Reagins and Theo Epstein are willing to pay him 18 million per season, maybe there is something worthwhile there. Or maybe those GM's just realize they would rather have Crawford at 18 million per season than aging fringe players like Abreu and Cameron in their outfield.

Reagins also invested over 30 million per in CF at one point. Boston and Anaheim have the resources to gamble and overpay.

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I have asked a number of other Reds fans this question, " What is your take on Adam Dunn?"

Answer: "The most unproductive RBI man I have seen." "Dunn will get his stats when they don't mean anything to the game." "Dunn is not a clutch hitter at all."

You should have told them to shut their ignorant faces.

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If you check the old game threads, you'll see tigers fans say that about Miguel Cabrera too.

Perception is not always reality. Guys fail "in the clutch" all the time.

Fans of all teams not making the playoffs think their teams lack fundamentals and don't hit in the clutch. If Dunn played for the Reds this year, they'd probably say he was clutch. We remember the bad stuff when our teams lose and the good stuff when they win.

And even if he doesn't hit in the clutch, he must spend all his time creating a bunch of runs which will put his team out in front, thus avoiding clutch situations. Either way, it's good.

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Reagins also invested over 30 million per in CF at one point. Boston and Anaheim have the resources to gamble and overpay.

The Angels don't have any more resources than the Tigers. No GM is perfect and Reagins has made some mistake but my point was that as a whole, Reagins and Epstein are two of the most respected GM's in baseball.

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The Angels don't have any more resources than the Tigers. No GM is perfect and Reagins has made some mistake but my point was that as a whole, Reagins and Epstein are two of the most respected GM's in baseball.

Do the Angels have a 20MM pitcher..how about a 20MM hitter..(Hunter) how bout the RSOX..

Roster/Payroll construction often dictates where, when and how you spend money..you can't make decisions in a vacuum..it's as foolsih as saying the NYY will bid for everyone..

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pompous jackass..

so when you post something blatanly inaccurate..and I provide data to correct it...I'm pompous..

OK..I'm pompous..lets move in.. of course I brought up the plate discipline premise..oh wait..I didn't.

Blatantly inaccurate? That's a blatantly inaccurate statement in itself, I stated facts you just chose to take 2 years ( at age 30 & 31) from a career that made its major league debut 9 years ago and imply that's what reality is. Sample size. If you want to gamble on that at 15 mill per or so that's fine, difference of opinion . I can handle a disagreement but you come off as very disrespectful and I don't recall doing anything to warrant that type of response from you.

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Blatantly inaccurate? That's a blatantly inaccurate statement in itself, I stated facts you just chose to take 2 years ( at age 30 & 31) from a career that made its major league debut 9 years ago and imply that's what reality is. Sample size. If you want to gamble on that at 15 mill per or so that's fine, difference of opinion . I can handle a disagreement but you come off as very disrespectful and I don't recall doing anything to warrant that type of response from you.

Well this is tiring..next time a qualifier that involved research say..Dunn had 77 walks this season but hsitorically has averaged over 110..maybe an outlier..maybe not..

I must have missed that fact..buy the way..teams dont pay for 3 and 4 years ago when they dish out 60MM..they pay for recent history..Werth isn't a flash in the pan..he has put up numbers since he has stayed healthy..

Plus he plays the field..

Like I said previously I like both..to only qualify one as having plate discipline..well..lets move on..the numbers speak for themselves.

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You will never believe this guys! I was at a Sonics today, and Asdrubal Cabrera was there and he told be that Jhonny Peralta is a total baby toucher.

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-55

Werth, and bringing back Maggs .. that's your offensive upgrade?

You failed.

Ooops, I only read the part about Werth, I want Dunn at DH

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In light of Bonderman's likely departure, an oddball fact to note is that he has 67 wins in his Tiger career while Jeff Weaver has 65 career wins since leaving Detroit.

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Well this is tiring..next time a qualifier that involved research say..Dunn had 77 walks this season but hsitorically has averaged over 110..maybe an outlier..maybe not..

I must have missed that fact..buy the way..teams dont pay for 3 and 4 years ago when they dish out 60MM..they pay for recent history..Werth isn't a flash in the pan..he has put up numbers since he has stayed healthy..

Plus he plays the field..

Like I said previously I like both..to only qualify one as having plate discipline..well..lets move on..the numbers speak for themselves.

Whats tiring is seeing you , time after time, respond so rudely to other people and their opinions. Nobody here needs to post under your guidelines or run the risk of being responded to the way you do. The reason I didn't post specific stats regarding Dunns history is because it is basic, common knowledge.

Teams that pay for recent history and not complete bodies of work are teams that end up being stuck with bad contracts.

You're right, the numbers do speak for themselves, Werth has done it 2 years out of 9 , IMO, nobody can say for certain at age 31 if he sustains this level for more than another year or so ( if that long even) . There is also the matter of ballpark factor and lineup strength , he loses on both counts if he comes to Detroit.

In 775 games, Werth has 361 BB vs, 727 Ks, he takes more walks than I had given him credit for but you take him out of Philly and you're looking at yet another RH bat good for 20-25 hr and a ton of K's . You're looking at a slightly better version of Brandon Inge at 15 mill per +. No thanks.

Werth at Home - .320 18 hr 50 rbi

Werth away - 270 9 hr 34 rbi

RISP - .186

Bases empty - .328

Now , as I said, put him in Comerica with a weaker lineup and let's see what we get.

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Whats tiring is seeing you , time after time, respond so rudely to other people and their opinions. Nobody here needs to post under your guidelines or run the risk of being responded to the way you do. The reason I didn't post specific stats regarding Dunns history is because it is basic, common knowledge.

Teams that pay for recent history and not complete bodies of work are teams that end up being stuck with bad contracts.

You're right, the numbers do speak for themselves, Werth has done it 2 years out of 9 , IMO, nobody can say for certain at age 31 if he sustains this level for more than another year or so ( if that long even) . There is also the matter of ballpark factor and lineup strength , he loses on both counts if he comes to Detroit.

In 775 games, Werth has 361 BB vs, 727 Ks, he takes more walks than I had given him credit for but you take him out of Philly and you're looking at yet another RH bat good for 20-25 hr and a ton of K's . You're looking at a slightly better version of Brandon Inge at 15 mill per +. No thanks.

Werth at Home - .320 18 hr 50 rbi

Werth away - 270 9 hr 34 rbi

RISP - .186

Bases empty - .328

Now , as I said, put him in Comerica with a weaker lineup and let's see what we get.

Once again..nobody cares what Dunn did in 2005..surely not a GM who is ready to spend 60MM.

Once again..nice lack of research Dunn hit .217 with RISP and .169 RISP w/2 outs. He also hit .199 vs LHP.

For the last time..I'd still take him..to denegrate Werth is ridiculous..

Werth road OPS

2010 .838

2009 .857

2008 .887

Magglio Ordonez road OPS

2010 .803

2009 .749

2008 .771

Miguel Cabrera road OPS

2010 1.015 (what a beast)

2009 .871

2008 .884 (less than Werth)

hmm..

yeah he sucks..

Look this is about baseball..not me..not you.

Edited by sportz4life

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For what it's worth, Werth's H/A splits weren't quite so spread in '09 or '08. His slugging was actually better on the road in '08 than at home. It's not that he's a bad hitter on the road, it's just that he appears to have improved considerably at Cit. Bank the past 2 seasons.

Personally I'm not a huge, huge fan of either Werth or Dunn as a FA. Just because they're 2 of the 3 best OF (with Crawford) in this year's FA crop doesn't make them better than they really are. I would take either (or both) on the Tigers, certainly, but I don't believe they are worth overpaying for, especially in contract length.

I'm just not enamored with much on this year's FA front, which makes the trade market, non-arbs and non-tenders more interesting and possibly appealing.

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For what it's worth, Werth's H/A splits weren't quite so spread in '09 or '08. His slugging was actually better on the road in '08 than at home. It's not that he's a bad hitter on the road, it's just that he appears to have improved considerably at Cit. Bank the past 2 seasons.

Personally I'm not a huge, huge fan of either Werth or Dunn as a FA. Just because they're 2 of the 3 best OF (with Crawford) in this year's FA crop doesn't make them better than they really are. I would take either (or both) on the Tigers, certainly, but I don't believe they are worth overpaying for, especially in contract length.

I'm just not enamored with much on this year's FA front, which makes the trade market, non-arbs and non-tenders more interesting and possibly appealing.

LG..they are decent producers..FA by rule are typically older and with flaws..but aside from that all they cost is money and sometimes a draft choice..it's better than mortgaging resources from an already depleted system. Especially when you have the cash available.

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Once again..nobody cares what Dunn did in 2005..surely not a GM who is ready to spend 60MM.

Once again..nice lack of research Dunn hit .217 with RISP and .169 RISP w/2 outs. He also hit .199 vs LHP.

For the last time..I'd still take him..to denegrate Werth is ridiculous..

Werth road OPS

2010 .838

2009 .857

2008 .887

Magglio Ordonez road OPS

2010 .803

2009 .749

2008 .771

Miguel Cabrera road OPS

2010 1.015 (what a beast)

2009 .871

2008 .884 (less than Werth)

hmm..

yeah he sucks..

Look this is about baseball..not me..not you.

2005? Who said this is about what Dunn did in 2005? He has done exactly the same thing for the last 6 years. Dunn hit .268 vs. LHP in '09 but he's wildly inconsistent from year to year against them. Dunn is younger than Werth and has done it longer, he is LH, he is among the best in the game at getting on base.

Once again, it's not lack of research as I'm not exactly trying to talk up Dunn, I'm simply saying Werth is overrated.

Once again, nice cherry picking with the stats, 2008? really? Werth played in 130 games that year. SO , Once again, you have 2 years of stats to back up your praise for Werth and are willing to dump a buttload of money on a guy like that.

You want to keep this about baseball? Try to act like a grown man and keep the insults and condescending attitude to a minimum then, we can have a baseball discussion without insulting each other I would think.

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Werth at Home - .320 18 hr 50 rbi

Werth away - 270 9 hr 34 rbi

RISP - .186

Bases empty - .328

.

One year splits are generally bot very useful, especially RISP. If you look at his splits for 2007 to 2009, you'll see that he actually hit better with RISP those years. His home/road numbers were almost the same:

RISP - .298

Bases empty .270

Home .280/.373/.492

Road .272/.379/.495

Jayson Werth Stats, News, Photos - Philadelphia Phillies - ESPN

Comerica Park has actually been a good park for right-handed batters over the last few years, so I wouldn't be too concerned about that. The switch in leagues and his age could be factors though.

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2005? Who said this is about what Dunn did in 2005? He has done exactly the same thing for the last 6 years. Dunn hit .268 vs. LHP in '09 but he's wildly inconsistent from year to year against them. Dunn is younger than Werth and has done it longer, he is LH, he is among the best in the game at getting on base.

Once again, it's not lack of research as I'm not exactly trying to talk up Dunn, I'm simply saying Werth is overrated.

Once again, nice cherry picking with the stats, 2008? really? Werth played in 130 games that year. SO , Once again, you have 2 years of stats to back up your praise for Werth and are willing to dump a buttload of money on a guy like that.

You want to keep this about baseball? Try to act like a grown man and keep the insults and condescending attitude to a minimum then, we can have a baseball discussion without insulting each other I would think.

Cherry picking..yeah 130 games is a small sample..right..

I discussed Dunns swings against LHP in the original post..

Lets move on..

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You guys are all missing something important: Werth would bring some much needed full beard action to the Tigers, something that only Verlander once in a while dabbles in.

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One year splits are generally bot very useful, especially RISP. If you look at his splits for 2007 to 2009, you'll see that he actually hit better with RISP those years. His home/road numbers were almost the same:

RISP - .298

Bases empty .270

Home .280/.373/.492

Road .272/.379/.495

Jayson Werth Stats, News, Photos - Philadelphia Phillies - ESPN

Comerica Park has actually been a good park for right-handed batters over the last few years, so I wouldn't be too concerned about that. The switch in leagues and his age could be factors though.

That's fine Lee, but of the three years you mention he played a full season in only one of those so the sample size is a little off.

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You guys are all missing something important: Werth would bring some much needed full beard action to the Tigers, something that only Verlander once in a while dabbles in.

noted..

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Cherry picking..yeah 130 games is a small sample..right..

I discussed Dunns swings against LHP in the original post..

Lets move on..

Little over 400 at bats, that's not a full season sorry, you cit elast year when talking about DUnn vs LHP but fail to mention 2009, how convenient. I'll move on when I'm ready to.

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Little over 400 at bats, that's not a full season sorry, you cit elast year when talking about DUnn vs LHP but fail to mention 2009, how convenient. I'll move on when I'm ready to.

<sigh> yeah..I'm the bad guy

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You guys are all missing something important: Werth would bring some much needed full beard action to the Tigers, something that only Verlander once in a while dabbles in.

Avila too, but I think that guy's a werewolf so it may not be valid.

Or are you talking strictly pitchers?

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