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Ever wonder why only 25% of DPS students graduate?

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But you said, in black and white, that poor writing skills have little to do with how kids learn in the classroom.

actually, i said that poor writing skills in the administration has little to do with how kids learn in the classroom. and i stand by that. i'm not referring solely to mathis - i'm talking about any administrator who writes poorly. i'm sure he's not the first.

administrators write to communicate, not to educate. if he can communicate by dictating his letters and memos, then i'm ok with it.

the fact that you find this all so maddening is oddly comforting!

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Both these quotes came before I'd mentioned anything about the liberals in this thread. There may be more, but, as I said, based on previous interactions, I probably have already wasted too much time pointing out your flawed research and/or logic.

Oh quit your whining about wasting your time - its unseemly.

Nobody defended the man when you made your rant - even your clips don't show that at all.

People were talking - and they did not agree with exactly your position - so you assumed they had voiced the opposite conclusion.

When you (or anybody else) say something that I think is wrong to support your conclusion - and I point out that what you said was wrong - that does not necessarily imply that I think your conclusion is wrong.

You screwed up - thats OK it happens. I'd rather you just admitted it and backed down or left the subject mute as you were doing for a while. But hey, its a free country aint it?

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No. That's what educators are saying. And I even provided a link. There are plenty more if you choose to look and educate yourself.

Nice talkin' to ya. I've already spent too much time doing it. Have a nice day...

So its not what you are saying. And its not what BST is saying. And its not what any educators we know are saying. So whats your point?

Nah - I think you are BSing me again Duane.

I think you were making some goofy conservative mock at "change agents" and soft headed liberals particularly those in education. Thats why I mocked you with General Precious Fluids.

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actually, i said that poor writing skills in the administration has little to do with how kids learn in the classroom. and i stand by that. i'm not referring solely to mathis - i'm talking about any administrator who writes poorly. i'm sure he's not the first.

administrators write to communicate, not to educate. if he can communicate by dictating his letters and memos, then i'm ok with it.

the fact that you find this all so maddening is oddly comforting!

Look, Sub, Mathis is a corrupt idiot who probably cheats on his taxes.

If you don't agree with exactly that then you are defending the man.

Its so obvious I can't understand why all you soft headed liberal communists don't get it.

Why do you hate America so much?

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Blue isn't specifically criticizing Otis Mathis here, but he's making the abstract argument that bad school leadership isn't going to make a difference to the kids.

A view which is based only on evidence in a number of large scale studies from a variety of places.

3-5% max, often zero.

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When stuff like this goes on: Detroit teen shot over his sunglasses, cops say | freep.com | Detroit Free Press

it is hard to place blame on teachers who can't get the students' attention and concentration.

+1. I think what NYC did set a great example - you have to deal with reducing crime first. Think of it as nation-building on a smaller scale.

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did albert einstein ever use a computer? i honestly don't know. homeboy died in 1955 so i know he wasn't crunching numbers on a macpro. i'm guessing melville wrote moby dick by candle light. so money i guess can help educate, but not necessary. what happened in rhode island - they fired all the teachers at the school because most of the kids couldn't do math. was that a funding issue? i doubt it.

corruption and poor writing skills in the administration have little to do with how kids learn in the classroom, imo.

But..... if the person teaching and judging students doesn't know how to write, she'll just pass on her deficiencies to students. How can she possibly grade an English test?

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I lived in Detroit for 17 years. I stopped wondering why a small fraction of the students graduate a long time ago - maybe 10 years ago.

Wonder implies a fascination, admiration, and/or surprise at something. When you see the ingredients that make the students into who they are, from the system down to the students' upbringings, it really is no wonder why so few graduate.

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I lived in Detroit for 17 years. I stopped wondering why a small fraction of the students graduate a long time ago - maybe 10 years ago.

Wonder implies a fascination, admiration, and/or surprise at something. When you see the ingredients that make the students into who they are, from the system down to the students' upbringings, it really is no wonder why so few graduate.

Pretty much. The problem isn't a teacher not teaching Calculus properly..it is far deeper than anything the teachers can do.

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But..... if the person teaching and judging students doesn't know how to write, she'll just pass on her deficiencies to students. How can she possibly grade an English test?

i distinguish between "administration" and teachers. i agree that english teachers must have mastered the english language and be able to communicate it effectively and correctly to the students in order for them to be good teachers. the kind of disability that otis mathis has would preclude effective teaching of english composition, imo.

however, being an effective administrator requires a different set of skills. and while i think an administrator *should* be able to compose english better than he apparently can, there are other skills that should also be considered when evaluating his effectiveness as an administrator.

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It's as simple as this. This guy does not need to be the head of the DPS. The DPS is broken as bad as a school district could be broken. Not only does it need to be fixed, it needs to convince the world that it has been fixed. It needs people to move back into the city.

I don't give a damn how good a speaker or organizer this guy is --- if he's running a school system, he needs to know how to write an email. Because this isn't some sort of experiment in social justice, or some feel-good Hallmark Hall of Fame movie ... and while he might be good at what he does, there are others out there just as good who can also communicate properly in writing.

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It's as simple as this. This guy does not need to be the head of the DPS. The DPS is broken as bad as a school district could be broken. Not only does it need to be fixed, it needs to convince the world that it has been fixed. It needs people to move back into the city.

I don't give a damn how good a speaker or organizer this guy is --- if he's running a school system, he needs to know how to write an email. Because this isn't some sort of experiment in social justice, or some feel-good Hallmark Hall of Fame movie ... and while he might be good at what he does, there are others out there just as good who can also communicate properly in writing.

Agreed

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It's as simple as this. This guy does not need to be the head of the DPS. The DPS is broken as bad as a school district could be broken. Not only does it need to be fixed, it needs to convince the world that it has been fixed. It needs people to move back into the city.

I don't give a damn how good a speaker or organizer this guy is --- if he's running a school system, he needs to know how to write an email. Because this isn't some sort of experiment in social justice, or some feel-good Hallmark Hall of Fame movie ... and while he might be good at what he does, there are others out there just as good who can also communicate properly in writing.

he's not my first choice. he was democratically elected. he's there.

and if he does a good job despite his disability, maybe he'll be re-elected. or maybe his opponent will use this against him. i personally hope he succeeds and is re-elected, and shows that people with disabilities can overcome them and be good civil servants.

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When stuff like this goes on: Detroit teen shot over his sunglasses, cops say | freep.com | Detroit Free Press

it is hard to place blame on teachers who can't get the students' attention and concentration.

This shooting took place across the street from the school. The problem you highlight is indeed a community/parental problem. And there are lots of kids in Detroit schools who live with those problems every day. But this is an entirely different issue that what goes on inside the schools, although I realize a lot of those problems obviously don't get left at the door.

A lot of the kids who come to Detroit schools have parents who are crackheads, thugs, or simply don't care. But as you well know, many of these kids also come from good, solid, moral families who are simply too poor to go anywhere else. Shouldn't they have a safe place where they can learn? Why don't they?

Sure, something should be done to get rid of the thugs who go to school and make learning difficult for the rest of the students. How could you do that? You could hire more security guards...but where's the money? I'll tell you: it's in a lot of these crooks' pockets, that's where...including Robert Bobb, who had the unbelievable nerve to give himself an $81,000 raise.

Wasn't he supposed to be the watchdog? How the hell does he justify giving himself that big a raise in a school district that's crying for money?

Detroit Public Schools spends more money per pupil than many suburban districts. Where the hell is that money going? Why do students still have textbooks from the Reagan era? Why are there still holes in school roofs?

It's going to the bloodsucking criminals who have been running the district for years and years. And I think Mr. Otis Mathis is one small symptom of this problem. Yeah, I know he hasn't been caught doing anything illegal. But the way his colleagues swept his obvious deficiencies under the rug and elected him president speaks to a larger culture of "looking the other way" and "hooking up your boys."

The DPS is a complete cesspool. I thought Bobb was going to clean up, but I didn't think it would this way. He just gave himself a raise that's probably double what the average student's parents make. And he's the guy who's supposed to be fixing the finances. Incredible.

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he's not my first choice. he was democratically elected. he's there.

and if he does a good job despite his disability, maybe he'll be re-elected. or maybe his opponent will use this against him. i personally hope he succeeds and is re-elected, and shows that people with disabilities can overcome them and be good civil servants.

If he has a disability, he forgot to tell it to Laura Berman, since she never mentioned it in her column. She did say that he was placed in special ed classes in the 4th grade, but Mathis only claimed he has a learning disability a day later, when Fox 2 News interviewed him in the wake of the original article.

Is one of his disabilities amnesia? Because, had he been diagnosed with dyslexia or another specific learning disability, it seems to me he'd have told it to Laura Berman when she asked about his illiterate emails.

He did remember to specifically mention his disability the next day, however, after the story broke. Ummmm...okay.

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It's as simple as this. This guy does not need to be the head of the DPS. The DPS is broken as bad as a school district could be broken. Not only does it need to be fixed, it needs to convince the world that it has been fixed. It needs people to move back into the city.

I don't give a damn how good a speaker or organizer this guy is --- if he's running a school system, he needs to know how to write an email. Because this isn't some sort of experiment in social justice, or some feel-good Hallmark Hall of Fame movie ... and while he might be good at what he does, there are others out there just as good who can also communicate properly in writing.

Thank you. What amazes me is that people want to argue for this guy. Politics over common sense.

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This shooting took place across the street from the school. The problem you highlight is indeed a community/parental problem. And there are lots of kids in Detroit schools who live with those problems every day. But this is an entirely different issue that what goes on inside the schools, although I realize a lot of those problems obviously don't get left at the door.

A lot of the kids who come to Detroit schools have parents who are crackheads, thugs, or simply don't care. But as you well know, many of these kids also come from good, solid, moral families who are simply too poor to go anywhere else. Shouldn't they have a safe place where they can learn? Why don't they?

Sure, something should be done to get rid of the thugs who go to school and make learning difficult for the rest of the students. How could you do that? You could hire more security guards...but where's the money? I'll tell you: it's in a lot of these crooks' pockets, that's where...including Robert Bobb, who had the unbelievable nerve to give himself an $81,000 raise.

Wasn't he supposed to be the watchdog? How the hell does he justify giving himself that big a raise in a school district that's crying for money?

Detroit Public Schools spends more money per pupil than many suburban districts. Where the hell is that money going? Why do students still have textbooks from the Reagan era? Why are there still holes in school roofs?

It's going to the bloodsucking criminals who have been running the district for years and years. And I think Mr. Otis Mathis is one small symptom of this problem. Yeah, I know he hasn't been caught doing anything illegal. But the way his colleagues swept his obvious deficiencies under the rug and elected him president speaks to a larger culture of "looking the other way" and "hooking up your boys."

The DPS is a complete cesspool. I thought Bobb was going to clean up, but I didn't think it would this way. He just gave himself a raise that's probably double what the average student's parents make. And he's the guy who's supposed to be fixing the finances. Incredible.

I agree with what your saying. These corrupt guys are a huge problem killing the school district.

But the average teacher is not to blame. Believe me, most kids are worried about getting jumped, beat up, robbed to and from school, in school...worried about what to eat, worried about issues at home. The teachers can try all they want and as hard as they can but they can only reach a small number of kids in a class.

Students are not in a position to learn based on the other conditions in their lives. And teachers cannot change those conditions.

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i distinguish between "administration" and teachers. i agree that english teachers must have mastered the english language and be able to communicate it effectively and correctly to the students in order for them to be good teachers. the kind of disability that otis mathis has would preclude effective teaching of english composition, imo.

however, being an effective administrator requires a different set of skills. and while i think an administrator *should* be able to compose english better than he apparently can, there are other skills that should also be considered when evaluating his effectiveness as an administrator.

I wonder how he got through college. College requires that skill set. Or it should.

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I agree with what your saying. These corrupt guys are a huge problem killing the school district.

But the average teacher is not to blame. Believe me, most kids are worried about getting jumped, beat up, robbed to and from school, in school...worried about what to eat, worried about issues at home. The teachers can try all they want and as hard as they can but they can only reach a small number of kids in a class.

Students are not in a position to learn based on the other conditions in their lives. And teachers cannot change those conditions.

I went to DPS schools, too, and while most of the blame lies with crooked administrators, I think some teachers are also at fault for the failing school system.

When I was in Boynton Middle School, we had a teacher who would waste the first 15 minutes of class selling squirts of hand cream. The students would line up at her desk at the start of class and she'd sell hand cream for 10 cents a squirt.

Another teacher sold candy to the kids. Another passed out ditto sheets and read the newspaper all day. Many of them would leave the classroom for most of the period.

I was in DPS from kindergarten to 10th grade. I'd say the ratio of good teachers to bad ones was about 7-3. Most of them were good, caring people, but a good number of them were either indifferent or complete jerks.

As far as the problems at home affecting learning, you are right. Coming from a messed-up family does make learning more difficult, but I know it can be overcome because I've seen it happen.

So for those kids, and the kids lucky enough to have good famlies, we as a community need to provide a safe place for them to learn. And we're not doing that. A lot of it can be blamed on the corruption, since, as I said, Detroit spends a lot more money per-pupil that other school systems that aren't failing.

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I wonder how he got through college. College requires that skill set. Or it should.

Wayne State University did have a writing requirement. Mathis sued to have the bar lowered.

Just the guy I want running my school board...a guy who would rather lower educational standards than try to overcome them.

How is this guy going to have any moral authority to tell kids they should study and educate themselves?

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If he has a disability, he forgot to tell it to Laura Berman, since she never mentioned it in her column. She did say that he was placed in special ed classes in the 4th grade, but Mathis only claimed he has a learning disability a day later, when Fox 2 News interviewed him in the wake of the original article.

Is one of his disabilities amnesia? Because, had he been diagnosed with dyslexia or another specific learning disability, it seems to me he'd have told it to Laura Berman when she asked about his illiterate emails.

He did remember to specifically mention his disability the next day, however, after the story broke. Ummmm...okay.

Maybe its not something he likes brining up. I could understand that - how about you?

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Maybe its not something he likes brining up. I could understand that - how about you?

Maybe. Or maybe he's just lazy as hell, and wants the world to bend to his laziness, so he spent 15 years trying to win a lawsuit to lower Wayne State's educational standards -- time and effort that could've been spent actually studying.

That's also a possibility.

Or, maybe you're right. Maybe when the first reporter called him asking about his emails he was just so embarrassed about his supposed learning disability he didn't mention it, although he certainly wasn't embarrassed to talk about the fact that he was a terrible writer...or how he only went to school a few days a week.

Perhaps it didn't dawn on him then that just shrugging and admitting he coudln't write would backfire on him....and then a day later he decided to come clean about his supposed learning disabiity.

Yeah, that's possible, too, I suppose. Is it probable? I don't think so.

Either way, the man has no business being president of a school board. And that's the issue at hand.

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