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Not sure if I should post this here or start its own thread.

Pretty good blog post about how bad things are right now. Pretty long and informative post so I will just paste one section. I highly recommend you go read the entire post yourself.

Joe Dumars and the Dark Side of the Force - Detroit Bad Boys

So in light of these failures in judgment, how would the Pistons roster have looked today if the right decisions above were made? Here's a depth chart:

PG Rajon Rondo/Ty Lawson

SG Ray Allen/Arron Afflalo

SF Jonas Jerebko/Chase Budinger

PF David Lee/DeJuan Blair

C Ben Wallace/DeAndre Jordan

What's noteworthy about that lineup? All of these players except for David Lee and Ray Allen were on rookie or vet minimum contracts. The flexibility there is staggering. Detroit would have still had plenty of 2009 free agent money to play with, and plenty more for 2010 with Ray Allen's $20M expiring. A core of Rajon Rondo and David Lee, both top 5 in their positions according to PER, could be worthy of contention with wise tertiary moves.

I don't agree with everything he has to say, but most is pretty good. I don't like using PER to determine who is top 5 at their position. I don't view hiring Flip as a success. Don't agree about the Billups trade. Pretty ambivalent about Afflalo, but can understand arguments both ways.

That roster above only wins you 30-35 games, possibly 40 if everything goes your way. But it would have provided a very solid base for the future.

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Not sure if I should post this here or start its own thread.

Pretty good blog post about how bad things are right now. Pretty long and informative post so I will just paste one section. I highly recommend you go read the entire post yourself.

Joe Dumars and the Dark Side of the Force - Detroit Bad Boys

I don't agree with everything he has to say, but most is pretty good. I don't like using PER to determine who is top 5 at their position. I don't view hiring Flip as a success. Don't agree about the Billups trade. Pretty ambivalent about Afflalo, but can understand arguments both ways.

That roster above only wins you 30-35 games, possibly 40 if everything goes your way. But it would have provided a very solid base for the future.

Nobody agrees with this idea more..I suggest every Piston fan read the article. he didn't even mention Darko, thats how objective he tried to be..

Yet in fairness to Dumars, nobody would have been that smart, that many times in a row. Not even Daryl Morey, the chosen one..

We can dream though.

Edited by sportz4life

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It seems obvious that next year is make or break for Dumars. (unless you've already given up on him like sportz has) He has to hit a home run with their lottery pick and has to turn Prince's contract into something positive.

If he doesn't, he's likely to be axed. And probably should be at that point.

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Although well-written, articles that analyze such things from a Monday Morning Quarterback viewpoint, are to be questioned, themselves. The irony is, he omitted mentioning the #1 reason Joe has had to scramble, for the last 3-4 years: the Darko Debacle.

So many of his consequent moves MAYBE would have been different, if he had Carmello or Wade in the fold. It didn't help that the 2003 Draft was arguably the best of the decade.

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We lost our edge tonight, there’s no question about it, and I was disappointed, because we’ve been playing some pretty good basketball up until tonight. And give them credit, they made shots,” Detroit coach John Kuester said. “We did not play with the type of intensity we have in the past.”

Despite the Knicks’ struggles, coach Mike D’Antoni continues to insist the Knicks were right to avoid making any minor upgrades last summer and instead protect the loads of salary cap space they have in hopes of making a big splash in July.

The Pistons are the example the Knicks can’t afford to follow. Detroit used the money it freed up in last season’s franchise-altering, Chauncey Billups(notes)-Allen Iverson deal to sign Ben Gordon(notes) and Charlie Villanueva(notes), good players who aren’t even starters.

“I don’t want to point them out, but we don’t want to get stuck in mediocrity and we could have done that,” D’Antoni said before the game. “We could’ve put a Band-Aid on some holes and be more competitive and right now that seems like a good idea, even to me, because we have to go through this. But this summer would not have been a good idea.”

They did get McGrady and Walker in separate deals at the trade deadline, and both played a big role Wednesday.

Now even D'anotoni is piling on Joe..I guess Kuester thinks losing 5 in a row is playing good basketball.

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That's so hilarious. Gosh this team is scuch a huge f up.

There I went pg-13 for you guys so you won't report me.

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This chaos is unlikely to settle before a new ownership team is found. Were stuck with Dumars til then. He wont be fired under these circumstances. Theres nobody there to fire him or hire a replacement. In this economic environment I dont forsee a sale for 2 to 3 years. Its gonna get worse before it gets better.

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Dumars has had a huge fall from grace. He walked on water for awhile here. Rebuilding is always tough, but the Billiups trade and the Darko pick have really come back to bite him. Taking Carmelo or Bosh in that draft would have smoothed the transition and wasting the cap space they got from trading Chauncey has left us stuck in mud. Inexplicably signing Hamilton to a long term extension after we started said rebuilding process is perhaps the most baffling move.

It was a good run for awhile and they got a ring out of it. But, we are probably back to where we were before Dumars got here and that is a sobering thought.

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Bottom 5 in the league for the next 2-3 years then we will be in position to start making things happen. You can't half *** a rebuilding process....Or rebuild while trying to stay "competitive" like Joe D has mentioned he wants to do. It just doesn't work like that Joesph.

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Now even D'anotoni is piling on Joe..I guess Kuester thinks losing 5 in a row is playing good basketball.

Make room for McHale in the pile. Although he was a terrible GM, so not sure what credibility he has.

The Oakland Press Blogs: Pistons' Point: McHale rips Detroit's signing of Gordon, Villanueva

McHale rips Detroit's signing of Gordon, Villanueva

The Celtics-Pistons game Tuesday night was featured on NBA TV’s Fan Night. Analyst Kevin McHale was not kind when discussing Detroit's signing of Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva is the offseason.

“A cautionary tale of all GMs that have a few bucks in their pocket; sometimes its better not to spend it," McHale said. "They spent it on Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva, two nice players but not players who are going to probably be able to carry your team. They are nice complementary players."

Both Gordon and Villanueva are coming off a horrible month of February and are struggling to get consistent minutes. Not exactly the return on investment the Pistons hoped for. Both were coming off career years last season, but are now regulated to role players off the bench for a bad Detroit team.

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Here is my lame attempt at being positive...

Charlie Villanohaira - Guy is only 25 and it's not totally unreasonable to say he could take a significant step forward next year.

BG - 26, averaged over 20 ppg last year, disaster this season but could look like a completely different player next year.

JJ - 23, the next David Lee.

Stuckey - 23, has improved every year as a professional.

Rip and Tay - I can't imagine that both don't have better seasons next year.

I don't think this team is going to win any championships, obviously, but I also don't think they will be this bad. This year is the worst case scenario with injuries and guys underachieving. Bynum, Daye, Max, plus our lottery pick isn't a great bench but it isn't a disaster either. Ben should be the only guy to get worse next year.

I think we have a mediocre playoff team that has some decent young pieces. I think they compare to the '08 Tigers...just nothing went right and rebounded nicely the next season. Pretty sad that this is the most uplifting post in this thread...

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Make room for McHale in the pile. Although he was a terrible GM, so not sure what credibility he has.

The Oakland Press Blogs: Pistons' Point: McHale rips Detroit's signing of Gordon, Villanueva

They are paid as "nice complimentary players". Especially CV, We could do without Charlie, but Ben Gordon has proven his worth in this league. They are not MAX guys. Once the chemistry gets right and if we can possibly toy with the roster (clear up ther logjam by any means necessary), I am excited about BG. Lotto pick will be key next year.

As far as D'antonio, he did not rip JoeD, that's a misleading headline. I am sure he understands that Detroit is not New York, and we are not a likely destination for Championship leading men. If we held out and did not sign Ben Gordon, we would still be forced to sign lesser FA's or give MAX deals to second rate stars like Amare or Joe Johnson. Joe has a mess, but it is not an uncleanable one. Also duly noted how easy it is to overreact and kick a former Champ when he is down. It means nothing to me.

Must be nice living in New York with unlimited funds and the energy of the city and MSG.

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Here is my lame attempt at being positive...

Charlie Villanohaira - Guy is only 25 and it's not totally unreasonable to say he could take a significant step forward next year.

BG - 26, averaged over 20 ppg last year, disaster this season but could look like a completely different player next year.

JJ - 23, the next David Lee.

Stuckey - 23, has improved every year as a professional.

Rip and Tay - I can't imagine that both don't have better seasons next year.

I don't think this team is going to win any championships, obviously, but I also don't think they will be this bad. This year is the worst case scenario with injuries and guys underachieving. Bynum, Daye, Max, plus our lottery pick isn't a great bench but it isn't a disaster either. Ben should be the only guy to get worse next year.

I think we have a mediocre playoff team that has some decent young pieces. I think they compare to the '08 Tigers...just nothing went right and rebounded nicely the next season. Pretty sad that this is the most uplifting post in this thread...

JJ has "It". I am so impressed how he finishes around the rim. He is a perfect role player. He's even hitting some jump shots lately.

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Make room for McHale in the pile. Although he was a terrible GM, so not sure what credibility he has.

The Oakland Press Blogs: Pistons' Point: McHale rips Detroit's signing of Gordon, Villanueva

You're right about McHale's credibility but even he can get this one right. I don't think CV was all that bad a signing though. Gordon is the one I didn't understand, even without Rip on the roster, I wouldn't have liked the signing. It was too much money for Gordon's game on a roster that, at the time, didn't have it's future PG, SF, PF or C.

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You're right about McHale's credibility but even he can get this one right. I don't think CV was all that bad a signing though. Gordon is the one I didn't understand, even without Rip on the roster, I wouldn't have liked the signing. It was too much money for Gordon's game on a roster that, at the time, didn't have it's future PG, SF, PF or C.

When you have been horrible yourself, it's easy to recognize horrible.

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Empty the Bench had a nice roundtable discussion on Gordon and CV. A few tidbits.

Ben Gordon Biggest Free Agent Bust of Season | Empty the Bench

The Pistons have two of the most disappointing free agent signings from the summer of 09 in Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva. Choosing which one has been more disappointing this year is like choosing which one of your children is a bigger failure at life. That being said, Gordon did have slightly higher expectations going into this season (he was drafted at 60.3 in the average ESPN fantasy league compared to 79.6 for Villanueva) and is getting paid $20 million more than Charlie V. So Ben Gordon it is.
I thought the biggest bust of last summer’s free agent class – accounting for the size of respective contracts – was Charlie Villanueva. Giving Charlie V $37.5 million, especially given the current state of the economy, was highly questionable. Look at the players who settled for the mid-level exception this past summer: Trevor Ariza, Ron Artest, Rasheed Wallace, etc. And the MLE starts at approximately $5.9 million. With that in mind, the Villanueva math just doesn’t add up. Is he really worth $7.5 million per season?

Read more at the link above.

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The opposing view (it's only Langlois, but I believe some key points to be valid):

Link: PISTONS: A Cautionary Tale - Part II

"...Gordon averaged 18.5 points a game and shot 40 percent from the 3-point line every one of his five years in Chicago, during which time he missed a grand total of 12 games due to injury. He’s missed 19 with two separate significant injuries this year and he’s shooting 30 percent from the arc. You think there might be a connection there? You think that when he comes back healthy next year, the Pistons aren’t likely to have one of the league’s 10 most dangerous perimeter scorers instead of the pale facsimile they’ve had so far?

I don’t care what you call him – franchise player, star, complementary player – that’s a player any team in the league would love to have with this caveat: at the right price. The Pistons paid him handsomely, but look around at players that age with his history of production and see what the going rate is.

Villanueva is never going to be mistaken for Ben Wallace. He’s not a bundle of energy, he’s not a defensive stopper and he’s not the bully of the block. What he can be is a player very much like Orlando’s Rashard Lewis, who’s in the third year of a six-year, $118 million deal – a finesse big man who causes matchup problems with his inside-out scoring ability, a capable rebounder and a defender who’ll win some, lose some.

Everybody understood they weren’t stars of the LeBron-Kobe-Wade magnitude, which explains why Dumars was able to get both of them for a combined first-year salary that will be roughly equal to what the players signing max deals will get this summer.

For Dumars, it was a choice of spending money to acquire assets while they were available, or not spending the money and seeing his buying power decrease dramatically. Gordon and Villanueva have had seasons no one could have projected, but to judge them on what they are right now – as opposed to what they showed prior to this season and where their career arcs project them – is abject foolishness. ..."

One of his key other points is that if we didn't sign anyone last year - No Ben Wallace, no Wilcox, no Gordon, and no Villanueva - and saved all that money for this year, we would still be short of being able to sign someone to a max contract. $39 mill committed with an expected $53 mill cap = $14 available. (PS: That includes renouncing Bynum I believe....)

I'm not certain which is better: Totally crapping the season and shooting for John Wall, or having BG and CV and BW, and still having an outside chance at Wall or Cousins, etc...

Edited by 84 Lives!!!

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I still hold the belief that:

1) Villanueva and Gordon can play much, much better, than they have this year.

2) They're young enough to improve. And that means especially defense where, I don't think they become great defenders, but at least capable enough - through hard work - to not be TOTAL Liabilities out there on the D side.

3) Since it looks like we may be getting a top 6-ish draft pick with or without these guys, I'd rather have them.

4) Prince and Wilcox will be expiring contracts and in high demand starting this offseason, and through next deadline... I'm going to guess (hope) that Dumars will be able to turn them into something good.

5) The Darko pick still sucks, and screws us over 1 premier player that we don't have, especially in the interior.

6) It's always hard to build a good frontcourt, so with the Darko crash-n-burn, we don't have any heir "apparents" after Sheed & Ben Wallace move(d) on. That has to be the main focus of the rebuild.

7) I think it is too premature to judge Stuckey, just as it's too premature to judge Gordon/ Villanueva. I'm not saying I believe he's the next Billups... I just don't think the time has arrived yet to make the "final" judgement.

8) Dumars is going to have to be a magician to fix all the Pistons' current woes/ issues. I'll still give him his two more years.

Edited by 84 Lives!!!

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