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Deleterious

2010 NBA Trade Deadline

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You also need to look at who Joe passed on.

Sure, but then you have to look at who every other GM passed on. To me it's all irrelevant though. Over the last decade the only team that one could reasonably argue won the championship on the strength of their own draft picks is San Antonio.

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Sure, but then you have to look at who every other GM passed on. To me it's all irrelevant though. Over the last decade the only team that one could reasonably argue won the championship on the strength of their own draft picks is San Antonio.

When those guys run my team, I will worry about who they do/don't draft.

And it was widely believed that Lakers did indeed make the pick for Kobe.

http://select.nytimes.com/2007/06/29/sports/29roberts.html

Bryant foreshadowed his gall. In 1996, Bryant, a teenager exiting high school for the N.B.A., was not the first pick, but he exuded self-importance when he refused to play anywhere but Hollywood.

With the 13th selection, with a deal to trade Bryant to Los Angeles in pocket, Charlotte chose him. But there was a point where it looked as if the Lakers’ Vlade Divac would retire rather than take part in a trade that would send him to Charlotte for Bryant.

So while technically they didn't pick Kobe, they really did pick him.

Edited by Deleterious

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So while technically they didn't pick Kobe, they really did pick him.

Even so they still did not draft Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, or Trevor Ariza to win last years nba championship or Shaq for the other 3 this millenium

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Even so they still did not draft Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, or Trevor Ariza to win last years nba championship or Shaq for the other 3 this millenium

But they did draft Kobe, Fisher, Farmar, Bynum.

Not only did they draft those guys. They used players they drafted to obtain players like Ariza and Gasol. The Pistons don't even have players they drafted that they could trade for other viable NBA level talent. It's just sad.

Nobody expects a team to be totally built via the draft. But it would be nice to land a few players now and then.

Edited by Deleterious

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When those guys run my team, I will worry about who they do/don't draft..

The point is only to add context. If you knew Milicic was going to be a bust in advance of the draft, I applaud you. If you knew that Joe Johnson, Tony Parker and Richard Jefferson were going to have long NBA careers and that White would flame out in a few short years, again I applaud you. I just don't think, if you go back and look at the last decade of drafts, any such science exists. After I did that I saw that Dumars was bad with his only 2 top 10 picks. His lower first round picks haven't been that horrible. And in the second round he's picked in the bottom 3 or 4 every year but one. In that year he got Okur.

And it was widely believed that Lakers did indeed make the pick for Kobe.

http://select.nytimes.com/2007/06/29/sports/29roberts.html

So while technically they didn't pick Kobe, they really did pick him.

Oh come on, he picked them, the article says as much :)

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The point is only to add context. If you knew Milicic was going to be a bust in advance of the draft, I applaud you. If you knew that Joe Johnson, Tony Parker and Richard Jefferson were going to have long NBA careers and that White would flame out in a few short years, again I applaud you. I just don't think, if you go back and look at the last decade of drafts, any such science exists. After I did that I saw that Dumars was bad with his only 2 top 10 picks. His lower first round picks haven't been that horrible. And in the second round he's picked in the bottom 3 or 4 every year but one. In that year he got Okur.

Let me repeat..2 good draft picks..Prince and Okur,and he allowed Okur to leave without compensation. 10 years..as I stated earlier a chimpanzee could have done as well throwing darts at a list..

You do not defend competence by using the everyone else sucked too defense..because A) they didn't and B)It's not a ringing example of shrewd management insight and success.

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Let me repeat..2 good draft picks..Prince and Okur,and he allowed Okur to leave without compensation. 10 years..as I stated earlier a chimpanzee could have done as well throwing darts at a list..

You do not defend competence by using the everyone else sucked too defense..because A) they didn't and B)It's not a ringing example of shrewd management insight and success.

I don't think it is a matter of using other's incompetence as a defense. I think it is using others to define what competence is for a team drafting late first round every year.

I am frankly kind of surprised that there is so much anti-Dumars sentiment on this board. Regardlesss of what he did well and failed miserably on, the Pistons have had more success in his tenure than almost any other team in the NBA in that same time span. I think he deserves more than a two year window to dig us out the rebuilding mess we are in right now...even if he is the one that created it.

Edited by Hart

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But they did draft Kobe, Fisher, Farmar, Bynum.

Not only did they draft those guys. They used players they drafted to obtain players like Ariza and Gasol. The Pistons don't even have players they drafted that they could trade for other viable NBA level talent. It's just sad.

Nobody expects a team to be totally built via the draft. But it would be nice to land a few players now and then.

I don't know the whole Kobe "draft" situation but the Gasol trade was a bailout for the Lakers. I compare it to the Garnett to Boston deal. The Lakers would have been laboring in mediocrity for the last three years had Memphis not bailed them out with that trade. And there is a good chance Kobe and the Lakers would not have been able to overcome their feud had it not been for the success obtained after Gasol joined the team. Give credit to the Lakers for absolutely raping Memphis with that trade but in my mind, that trade was not a result of superior drafting by the Lakers. It was a result of Memphis trying to unload money.

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Putting aside the issue whether or not Joe drafted as well as could be reasonably expected 2000-2007, can anyone defend what the Pistons have done since start of the rebuild / the hiring of Michael Curry?

For me, the relevent question is not whether or not Joe picked well in 2003 or 2005 or whether or not he was the top executive in the NBA 2000-2009, the relevent question ought to be whether or not he is the right individual to rebuild the Pistons now.

I would like to read a good argument supporting the position he is the right man to lead the rebuild effort, and that there is a plan at work here that is logical. Because absent that, based on the early returns, I am forced to say that his decisions are not likely to turn the Pistons around in the next 2 or 3 years. Maybe they will, but it doesn't look likely to me.

I really like Joe Dumars. I have a lot of respect for what he did for the Pistons (both as a player and as a GM). But what matters now is not what he did 5 or 10 years ago, or his accomplishments relative to other GMs over that timeframe, but rather how he is rebuilding the team now relative to what one could reasonably expect from another GM.

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Putting aside the issue whether or not Joe drafted as well as could be reasonably expected 2000-2007, can anyone defend what the Pistons have done since start of the rebuild / the hiring of Michael Curry?

For me, the relevent question is not whether or not Joe picked well in 2003 or 2005 or whether or not he was the top executive in the NBA 2000-2009, the relevent question ought to be whether or not he is the right individual to rebuild the Pistons now.

I would like to read a good argument supporting the position he is the right man to lead the rebuild effort, and that there is a plan at work here that is logical. Because absent that, based on the early returns, I am forced to say that his decisions are not likely to turn the Pistons around in the next 2 or 3 years. Maybe they will, but it doesn't look likely to me.

I really like Joe Dumars. I have a lot of respect for what he did for the Pistons (both as a player and as a GM). But what matters now is not what he did 5 or 10 years ago, or his accomplishments relative to other GMs over that timeframe, but rather how he is rebuilding the team now relative to what one could reasonably expect from another GM.

I can agree with that opinion. If Dumars is able to unload Rip and/or Prince and dump a large amount of salary in the next two seasons, I think everyone's perception of him would change. I know that is a big "if", but I don't think it is an unthinkable idea.

In the NBA, a couple of trades, and/or a big FA signing can change a team from being a lottery team, to an NBA title contender. I'm not sure that can be said in any other sport.

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I don't know the whole Kobe "draft" situation but the Gasol trade was a bailout for the Lakers. I compare it to the Garnett to Boston deal. The Lakers would have been laboring in mediocrity for the last three years had Memphis not bailed them out with that trade. And there is a good chance Kobe and the Lakers would not have been able to overcome their feud had it not been for the success obtained after Gasol joined the team. Give credit to the Lakers for absolutely raping Memphis with that trade but in my mind, that trade was not a result of superior drafting by the Lakers. It was a result of Memphis trying to unload money.

The Gasol trade was no more of a bailout than the Rasheed trade for the Pistons. In fact, one could argue that the Rasheed trade was even more lopsided. Somehow you forgot to bring it up though :happy:

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Look..Dumars hasn't made a shrewd move since 2005.QUOTE]

Shrewd moves:

Bynum from obscurity

Stuckey at 15

Jerebko in the 2nd

Letting Wallace go and then re-signing him at the minimum

The only really horrible move that he hasn't been able to get rid of (Nazr was pretty bad but Jordan took care of that one for us and the Curry experiment) is Hamilton's contract.

Most of his good moves lately have been minor. But I like Kuester, I like Charlie V. and his contract. Gordon is a bit overpaid but that is going to happen in free agency. They are rebuilding, they have flexibility, they have some pieces and I think they have a vision. Not quite sure what that vision is but he seems to have put a premium on length and attacking the basket. With his track record I am more than willing to see where he is going.

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The Gasol trade was no more of a bailout than the Rasheed trade for the Pistons. In fact, one could argue that the Rasheed trade was even more lopsided. Somehow you forgot to bring it up though :happy:

Rasheed was a bailout for us. He was also 30 years old and basically a 14 and 7 guy who was past his prime. He also never shot over 44% once as a Piston. Gasol was 27 or 28 when the Lakers acquired him and in the prime of his career. He is essentially a 19 and 9 guy for them and could score even more if need be but he is not needed to on that team. He has never shot under 55% for the Lakers.

Sheed was a huge get for this team and we would not have won a championship without him. But he was not the player Gasol is when we got him. And he was more of a piece of the puzzle where as Gasol is a guy you build a team around.

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Rasheed was a bailout for us. He was also 30 years old and basically a 14 and 7 guy who was past his prime. He also never shot over 44% once as a Piston. Gasol was 27 or 28 when the Lakers acquired him and in the prime of his career. He is essentially a 19 and 9 guy for them and could score even more if need be but he is not needed to on that team. He has never shot under 55% for the Lakers.

Sheed was a huge get for this team and we would not have won a championship without him. But he was not the player Gasol is when we got him. And he was more of a piece of the puzzle where as Gasol is a guy you build a team around.

Come on Hart. Don't compare numbers. Sheed played on a team that when they scored 95, it was an offensive explosion. Meanwhile, the Lakers averaged 107 points per game last year. Sheed was at best, the Pistons 3rd option and sometimes 4th. Gasol is always #2 and oh yeah, all 5 defenders he plays against are concentrating on someone else at all times. Do I think Sheed was as good as Gasol on offense? No. But Gasol isn't as good as Sheed was on D. Hell, he still isn't now.

Sheed and Gasol were both one of the premier big men in the league when their teams obtained them. Both were crazy lopsided trades.

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Look..Dumars hasn't made a shrewd move since 2005.

Shrewd moves:

Bynum from obscurity

Stuckey at 15

Jerebko in the 2nd

Letting Wallace go and then re-signing him at the minimum

The only really horrible move that he hasn't been able to get rid of (Nazr was pretty bad but Jordan took care of that one for us and the Curry experiment) is Hamilton's contract.

Most of his good moves lately have been minor. But I like Kuester, I like Charlie V. and his contract. Gordon is a bit overpaid but that is going to happen in free agency. They are rebuilding, they have flexibility, they have some pieces and I think they have a vision. Not quite sure what that vision is but he seems to have put a premium on length and attacking the basket. With his track record I am more than willing to see where he is going.

Bench player..combo guard on a bad team..bench player..ancient relic over the hill big man..

you were saying..good drafts and acquisitions START..and are solid starters..if these players were so good, why are they on a 10 game losing streak..and why is it the second losing streak of 6 or greater of the season..

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Even Joe Dumars would admit that he has not drafted well. He also would admit that he did not prepare as well for the "transition" as he would have hoped. His goal was for the team to not sink below .500 like the Pistons did after the Bad Boy era. Well, his worst fear has happened.

We had a great 6 years and a championship but we are in deep trouble going forward. I don't doubt that we can get to the playoffs in the coming years, but we are light years away from contention and I don't see any direction with this team. This is simply a poorly constructed roster.

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Why did the wings payroll often double the next closest competitor if it wasn't necessary? Holland has really 1 championship under his belt, he took over a championship team in 98 that repeated in his first year, 98/02 were also Bowmans players and with Bowman as coach. I'll give him 2007-2008, great good job.

As I look at the standings today, the Wings are out of the playoffs, what new exciting young players has Holland drafted that are ready to fill in? Looking at their roster it's pretty long in the tooth isn't it?

I don't really see any major contributors other the Datsuk/Zetterberg, and they were both low picks the wings could afford to take and buy out later. Kronwall is there only #1 pick on the roster it seems and that was from 2000, Kenny Holland needs to be fired I guess.

No one is above criticism but Ken Holland is an incredible GM. Under his leadership, the Red Wings have won the Central Division nine times, the Presidents' Trophy four times, and the Stanley Cup three times. With 544 regular season wins and 94 post-season wins, the Red Wings have won more games than any other team in the league since he took over in 1997-1998. In other words, no other organization has been as successful as the Wings since he's been the GM. Yeah, he's good.

The Wings have so many injuries this year that you almost have to give him a pass. Our string of success under him has been amazing. I cannot understand how any reasonable fan can criticize the job Ken Holland or the Wings front office has done. Talk about nit picking. If you can't be happy with the job he's done then you will never be happy with any sports team that you follow.

Edited by Scottwood

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I don't think it is a matter of using other's incompetence as a defense. I think it is using others to define what competence is for a team drafting late first round every year.

I am frankly kind of surprised that there is so much anti-Dumars sentiment on this board. Regardlesss of what he did well and failed miserably on, the Pistons have had more success in his tenure than almost any other team in the NBA in that same time span. I think he deserves more than a two year window to dig us out the rebuilding mess we are in right now...even if he is the one that created it.

Your definition of success and mine are obviously different, you measure record and ECF as success. I measure titles..last time I looked the Pistons had one title and two other teams in the decade had 3.

Edited by sportz4life

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Your definition of success and mine are obviously different, you measure record and ECF as success. I measure titles..last time I looked the Pistons had one title and two other teams in the decade had 3.

Winning titles should be the ultimate measure of success but not the only measure. Was Charles Barkley not a great player? How bout Karl Malone?

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Come on Hart. Don't compare numbers. Sheed played on a team that when they scored 95, it was an offensive explosion. Meanwhile, the Lakers averaged 107 points per game last year. Sheed was at best, the Pistons 3rd option and sometimes 4th. Gasol is always #2 and oh yeah, all 5 defenders he plays against are concentrating on someone else at all times. Do I think Sheed was as good as Gasol on offense? No. But Gasol isn't as good as Sheed was on D. Hell, he still isn't now.

Sheed and Gasol were both one of the premier big men in the league when their teams obtained them. Both were crazy lopsided trades.

What am I suppose to compare then? I think you overrate Sheed. He was a nice player but just because he was the guy who put us over the top does not make him a premier big men. He is not near the same player Gasol was/is.

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Your definition of success and mine are obviously different, you measure record and ECF as success. I measure titles..last time I looked the Pistons had one title and two other teams in the decade had 3.

So who can do a better job than Dumars, going forward (and is also available)?

Who should we hire to take his place?

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So who can do a better job than Dumars, going forward (and is also available)?

Who should we hire to take his place?

Tough call, seems like some of the better, recent rebuilding jobs, have eminated from reasonably unknown, fresh GM hires.

Presti, Pritchard, Kahn (seems to be off to a decent job of amassing talent and revamping his roster), my personal favorite Morey.

The Pistons need to think outside the box. But honestly, Dumars isn't going anywhere until they sell the team or the team continues to flounder..and make no mistake about it, since Feb 1st 2009 they have floundered horrendously. If they blow the offseason and lottery pick and stink again next season..the clamoring for Dumars head will be long and loud..

I mean seriously, do you want Joe Dumars wasting lottery picks..do you feel confident having Joe Dumars drafting top 5 talent for you?? not just once maybe twice..

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