Jump to content

Deleterious

2010 NBA Trade Deadline

Recommended Posts

cmon over we can share..detail for me what he has done the last 5 years...

And do you honestly believe this is how Dumars is being judged by ownership?

PS: Liqour is quicker but tokin' is... errr, I'll save that for when we're in Amsterdam... :grin:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not sure that is a good way to judge a GM. The eastern conference might have 2 or 3 teams below .500 who make the playoffs this year. If the Pistons continue to finish below .500, but keep making the playoffs, is Dumars doing a good job?

Again, what is it that you want from a GM? What is it that Dumars has not delivered?

I would bet everything I have that the Pistons don't make the playoffs this year, so if they make it next year, it most definitely will be an improvement (I see them winning 30-35 games this year). That is all you can ask out of a GM IMO. If the team is REALLY talented and barely making the playoffs, than you fire the GM. I just don't think the Pistons are that talented right now (and they seem to be pretty beat up). I do think they are getting younger, and have a lot of upside, but we do need to dump some salary and pick up a nice FA in the next two years IMO!

Edited by belcherboy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have no problem with your evaluation, but to judge a GM based on the past 2 years alone is short sighted. We were in the ECF 2 seasons ago (it hasn't even been 2 full seasons), you remember? or is that too far in the past to count? :grin:

To completely discount the fact that we've won an NBA championship, been to another NBA finals, and been to 6 ECF's in the past decade is just simply too greedy IMO. Dumars deserves some more time (alot more IMO), but hey, fire away, I'm sure you got somebody in mind that will definitely win more playoff games than Dumars has won the past 5 years! :ponder:

Not relevant to today..they had zero chance to win that series and were disposed of with prejudice...Good GM's see the future and transistion into it..it is a difficult road to navigate, but some do..choosing who on your roster that aloows you to accopmplish that transition effectively is part of the process, but it gets done all the time in every sport. Guys like Belicheck, Holland, Polian, Epstein, Parcells, Bowman, Gillick and others I haven't included all understand how to bridge the gap between old regimes and new regimes on the fly..the side of the road is littered with hundereds who had a nice run then crashed and burned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not relevant to today

So the accomplishments of a year and a half ago don't count? Seriously, that is a HARD sports world you are living in!

..they had zero chance to win that series and were disposed of with prejudice...Good GM's see the future and transistion into it..it is a difficult road to navigate, but some do..choosing who on your roster that aloows you to accopmplish that transition effectively is part of the process, but it gets done all the time in every sport. Guys like Belicheck, Holland, Polian, Epstein, Parcells, Bowman, Gillick and others I haven't included all understand how to bridge the gap between old regimes and new regimes on the fly..the side of the road is littered with hundereds who had a nice run then crashed and burned.

So he deserves ZERO credit for making it to the Final Four teams in the NBA just a season and a half ago? Are you actually saying you would have fired him after the 2008 season?

You are naming GM's from other sports. Talk about apples and oranges. I wish Dumars could spend the money that Epstein, and Holland have spent in their biggest years.

Has Parcells won anything as a GM? has Belicheck ever been a GM? Parcells? Are you really saying that Dumars doesn't trump ANY of their accomplishments? I'd argue that he has had WAY more success as a GM than any of those guys have had (I really don't believe they have been GM's though)

Start naming the guys that you would feel good about replacing Dumars (add your name to the list as well :wink:)

Edited by belcherboy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dumars shouldn't be fired, yet. I feel his past accomplishments get him 3 years to rebuild. This was year one, so two more years. If they aren't back in the top 4 of the conference by then, its time to talk about getting rid of him.

I would agree with that. This best thing that could happen to them this year is to get a nice lottery pick.

Well, that and find anyone who would take Hamilton's contract.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Again, what is it that you want from a GM? What is it that Dumars has not delivered?

I would bet everything I have that the Pistons don't make the playoffs this year, so if they make it next year, it most definitely will be an improvement (I see them winning 30-35 games this year). That is all you can ask out of a GM IMO. If the team is REALLY talented and barely making the playoffs, than you fire the GM. I just don't think the Pistons are that talented right now (and they seem to be pretty beat up). I do think they are getting younger, and have a lot of upside, but we do need to dump some salary and pick up a nice FA in the next two years IMO!

Depending on where a team is, I want different things from a GM. A team as bad as the Pistons are, I expect to see them back to being competitive in 3 years. Since the rebuilding started last year, its really a 4 year window I gave him. I don't expect championships in that time. I expect the 2nd round of the playoffs and not getting smoked 4-1 or 4-0.

I don't think that is being unrealistic on my part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So the accomplishments of a year and a half ago don't count? Seriously, that is a HARD sports world you are living in!

So he deserves ZERO credit for making it to the Final Four teams in the NBA just a season and a half ago? Are you actually saying you would have fired him after the 2008 season?

what accomplishments were those..I mean seriously..what accomplishments, the vapor smoke of a once very good team that was left to stagnate and implode..what accomplishments. Fact, the Pistons would have been much better off, becoming horrible, in the lottery 2X in order to rebuild, rather than be in cap hell, with a team full of 6th men and second rate bench players..because they are going to finish in the lottery now anyway..just not close enough to guarantee a top 3 pick..then of course the last time they had the layup of all layup choices..what happened then..

You are naming GM's from other sports. Talk about apples and oranges. I wish Dumars could spend the money that Epstein, and Holland have spent in their biggest years.

Has Parcells won anything as a GM? has Belicheck ever been a GM? Parcells? Are you really saying that Dumars doesn't trump ANY of their accomplishments? I'd argue that he has had WAY more success as a GM than any of those guys have had (I really don't believe they have been GM's though)

Start naming the guys that you would feel good about replacing Dumars (add your name to the list as well :wink:)

Yes, I am naming teams from other sports because the premise of transitioning a tema transcends sports, it's a skill that isn't indigenous to one sport.

It's difficult to argue with you when your command of the facts is so poor..are you aware of who controls the player personnel decisions for the Patriots?? Are you aware of who controlled every personnel decison in every regime Parcells was a part of, after the Giants?? Money had zero to do with the players Babcock and Epstein developed to plug into their teams as others became to expensive or aged..you miss the entire point.. no offense, the discussion is a fruiltess excercise if you dont have command of these facts..

Edited by sportz4life

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's difficult to argue with you when your command of the facts is so poor..are you aware of who controls the player personnel decisions for the Patriots?? Are you aware of who controlled every personnel decison in every regime Parcells was a part of, after the Giants?? Money had zero to do with the players Babcock and Epstein developed to plug into their teams as others became to expensive or aged..you miss the entire point.. no offense, the discussion is a fruiltess excercise if you dont have command of these facts..

Are you incapable of arguing without being a prick?

As if you have a better grasp of the facts than anyone else. Your "knowledge" of sports is no better than the people you belittle. In many cases, it's even less.

God damn you talk a lot of ****.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Are you incapable of arguing without being a prick?

As if you have a better grasp of the facts than anyone else. Your "knowledge" of sports is no better than the people you belittle. In many cases, it's even less.

God damn you talk a lot of ****.

Ya think, the fact sighted were wrong and easily documented with a simple google or wikipedia search....Buddha..there is always the famous ignore feature..or a PM..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah, I do think you talk a lot of crap.

Thats nice..it's the natural instincts of being a Wolverine and having such a frustrating fan experience. Like I said..your entitled to your opinion and I would suggest the ignore feature.

Edited by sportz4life

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My take on the Dumars as GM thing is this...

...I am pretty much OK with the Pistons moves up to the start of the 2008 season. Yes, in retrospect, there are decisions or moves that could have been done (e.g. not signing Rasheed, moving a pieces more aggressively, etc.) thet would have made the Pistons better now. At the time of those decisions, however, the Pistons were legitimate Finals caliber team (in part due to the sorry state of the Eastern conference), and I can understand not wanting to bust a team up that has at least a 40% shot to make the Finals, and at least a punchers chance to win the whole ball of wax. This takes them up until the start of last season.

That out of the way, once the 2008 play-offs were over, and it was clear that the Pistons' time had come and gone, I really don't see any defense to not starting the rebuild project. So they traded Chauncey. Fine move. But they extended Rip just a few days before. Why? They clear AI's money off the ledgers. Fine. Then tie it up in Ben Gordon and Charlie Villenuava. Again, why? Are these guys one builds a team around? Not only that, they play positions that were already manned reasonably well. Those signings really didn't address their needs.

Go into this season with a glut of 2s and 3s whose skills really don't complement one another all that well, no true 1 (in a very deep draft for 1s, no less), no true 5, and their 4 is a 108 year-old Ben Wallace. Don't get me wrong - I think Ben has done yeoman's work, provided far more than I expected or hoped, but honestly, what is the long-term direction or plan here?

I agree with Del's notion that Joe should get 2 more years after this season to get the ship turned around (i.e. be and up and comer) - that is a 4-year time frame to do this, and I think that is reasonable. I hope he can do it, but I think it is fair to say the early returns on the rebuild job are not as promising as I would hope or expect.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's difficult to argue with you when your command of the facts is so poor..are you aware of who controls the player personnel decisions for the Patriots??

I would assume the GM, but it isn't?

Are you aware of who controlled every personnel decison in every regime Parcells was a part of, after the Giants??

I would assume the GM, but it wasn't? What has Parcells won? How does it compare to Dumars record?

Money had zero to do with the players Babcock and Epstein developed to plug into their teams as others became to expensive or aged..you miss the entire point.. no offense, the discussion is a fruiltess excercise if you dont have command of these facts..

Help me command the facts, what did these guys do? I didn't make the assertion, you did. What champions did Parcells build? How does having a payroll that is more than double the league average not make you a better team? (i.e. Epstein). How does that compare to Dumars?

Give me some knowledge! You named people who are better than Dumars. Give me some facts to back it up. I can name you Dumars facts if you like, he was the executive of the decade by the Sporting News, but hey, it's just the NBA...it really can't compete with other sports!

If I'm not knowledgeable to debate this subject with you, than so be it. I really don't care about whether Dumars is fired, praised, criticized, etc. at all. I don't follow the Pistons that closely anymore now that I'm out of state. So if it is "fruitless" to debate it with me, feel free to stop doing it. I don't agree with you, but you obviously have a knowledge of sports that escapes me. I have no problem ending the debate and conceding you victory! :happy:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I would assume the GM, but it isn't?

cmon..you know..it was ....Belicheck with his assistant Scott Pioli

I would assume the GM, but it wasn't? What has Parcells won? How does it compare to Dumars record?

2 Super Bowls.. rebuilt two 1-15 teams and remade them into playoff teams within 2 years and took one to the SB. Forget the Cowboy success, we dont even need to count that..He's remade 4 teams into winners.. compared to Dumars one run with the same players.

Help me command the facts, what did these guys do? I didn't make the assertion, you did. What champions did Parcells build? How does having a payroll that is more than double the league average not make you a better team? (i.e. Epstein). How does that compare to Dumars?

Give me some knowledge! You named people who are better than Dumars. Give me some facts to back it up. I can name you Dumars facts if you like, he was the executive of the decade by the Sporting News, but hey, it's just the NBA...it really can't compete with other sports!

If I'm not knowledgeable to debate this subject with you, than so be it. I really don't care about whether Dumars is fired, praised, criticized, etc. at all. I don't follow the Pistons that closely anymore now that I'm out of state. So if it is "fruitless" to debate it with me, feel free to stop doing it. I don't agree with you, but you obviously have a knowledge of sports that escapes me. I have no problem ending the debate and conceding you victory! :happy:

First of all my bad..meant to say Holland not Babcock..and Holland dwarfs what Dumars has done on every level. 4 cups, 12 years, remade the entire team with primarily home grown players, both in a cap and non cap enviroment..virtually no comparison..

Epstein won 2 World Series and grew most of his own players, Ortiz was a waiver wire pickup and Beckett a trade where he gave up Hanley Ramirez..

The Point..all of these executives remade and developed teams...they developed players internally, some for multiple franchises...Dumars assembled 6 guys including McDyess and rode them for 6 years added nobody and has presided over the franchise melting into a puddle.

Basketball is the easiest sport to succeed in, it's 5 players.. and 2 superstars can allow you to dominate..Dumars had a nice 6 year run..since then he has been incompetent..

His best draft choices for the decade..Aafalo, Maixiel, Stuckey, Prince, Okur

What player has he added to the roster since 2005 that is notable..name one

Sporting News exec of the year..hats off..he won 1 championship..would have made more sense to name the GM's of the LAL or SAS they won 3X each..however they had 2 GM's in the decade..

Joe's coaches have been: George Irvine, Rick Carlisle, Larry Brown, Flipper Saunders, Michael Curry, John Kuester.. 6 coaches in a decade..something is not real right about that is there..

so he drafted 2 solid players Okur and Prince, one of whom didn't even start here and he allowed him to leave for free and 6 coaches..he hasn't made a notable trade or signing in 5 years..

OK..there's my facts....after the 2005 NBA finals..what do you have?? Who did he acquire, who did he develop, who was the solid coaching choice, how did he transition the team to the next era??

By the way your at 55.6 million so you have zero cap space to buy anybody..and your team sits at 11-21.

Edited by sportz4life

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 Super Bowls..

Again, was he GM for those teams? If he was coach, how does one do both coaching and GM? You couldn't do that in the NBA with all the trading that goes on. Which was my apples and oranges comment earlier. Same thing in the MLB.

rebuilt two 1-15 teams and remade them into playoff teams within 2 years and took one to the SB. Forget the Cowboy success, we dont even need to count that..He's remade 4 teams into winners.. compared to Dumars one run with the same players.

Please forgive my ignorance (I looked it up on Wiki to no avail) Please educate me on which Superbowl team he created with his GM moves. I really can't find it.

First of all my bad..meant to say Holland not Babcock..and Holland dwarfs what Dumars has done on every level. 4 cups, 12 years, remade the entire team with primarily home grown players, both in a cap and non cap enviroment..virtually no comparison..

No problem. Dumars doesn't compare to the GREATEST GM in the NHL over the past 20 years, possibly all time. No debate there, but what other GM's have had the success that Holland has had? It would be like complaining that wasn't Michael Jordan...really not fair to compare IMO.

Epstein won 2 World Series and grew most of his own players, Ortiz was a waiver wire pickup and Beckett a trade where he gave up Hanley Ramirez..

What is "most of his players"? I have seen SEVERAL people signed by the Boston Red Sox the past 5 years. With a payroll that is more than double the average team, why is that a fair comparison?

The Point..all of these executives remade and developed teams...they developed players internally, some for multiple franchises...Dumars assembled 6 guys including McDyess and rode them for 6 years added nobody and has presided over the franchise melting into a puddle.

Basketball is the easiest sport to succeed in, it's 5 players.. and 2 superstars can allow you to dominate..Dumars had a nice 6 year run..since then he has been incompetent..

No doubt it is the easiest sport to succeed in, but why can't 25 other teams do what the Pistons have done the past decade? Probably cause it isn't as easy as you are making it out to be, and Dumars may deserve a little more respect than you give him.

His best draft choices for the decade..Aafalo, Maixiel, Stuckey, Prince, Okur

And yet he has the 4th best record of the decade. Seems pretty impressive to me that you can have 10 years of success without drafting well!

What player has he added to the roster since 2005 that is notable..name one

Why does that matter? I can name teams that have signed some GREAT players, but those teams don't have the record that the Dumars teams have had. I tend to measure success by wins and losses, and Dumars has done well in that department.

Sporting News exec of the year..hats off..he won 1 championship..would have made more sense to name the GM's of the LAL or SAS they won 3X each..however they had 2 GM's in the decade..

Regardless, you must admit that the experts disagree with you.

Joe's coaches have been: George Irvine, Rick Carlisle, Larry Brown, Flipper Saunders, Michael Curry, John Kuester.. 6 coaches in a decade..something is not real right about that is there..

Totally agree, and I think therein lies Dumars biggest faults!

OK..there's my facts....after the 2005 NBA finals..what do you have?? Who did he acquire, who did he develop, who was the solid coaching choice, how did he transition the team to the next era??

Again, wins and losses is all that matters. Let's worry about the future when it gets here. So far he has the 4th best record of the decade, and started it with nothing! Does he not deserve a chance to do it again?

By the way your at 55.6 million so you have zero cap space to buy anybody..and your team sits at 11-21.

I'm still not worried. Joe has proven that he can create.

Edited by belcherboy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Again, was he GM for those teams? If he was coach, how does one do both coaching and GM? You couldn't do that in the NBA with all the trading that goes on. Which was my apples and oranges comment earlier. Same thing in the MLB.

There was no GM..Belicheck is in charge of all personnel moves everYone works for him

Please forgive my ignorance (I looked it up on Wiki to no avail) Please educate me on which Superbowl team he created with his GM moves. I really can't find it.

New England with Tony Eason

No problem. Dumars doesn't compare to the GREATEST GM in the NHL over the past 20 years, possibly all time. No debate there, but what other GM's have had the success that Holland has had? It would be like complaining that wasn't Michael Jordan...really not fair to compare IMO.

Sam Pollack.. Montreal Canadians

Bill Torrey New York Islanders

Glen Sather Edmonton Oilers

Thats three..

What is "most of his players"? I have seen SEVERAL people signed by the Boston Red Sox the past 5 years. With a payroll that is more than double the average team, why is that a fair comparison?

Youkillis, Pedroia. Ellsbury, Pappelbon, Lester all homegrown with Buchholz and Delcarrmen..there's lots more but thats the last 5 years..Ortiz was a waiver deal and Becket was acquired for Hanley Ramirez. Money had zero to do with any of those players.

No doubt it is the easiest sport to succeed in, but why can't 25 other teams do what the Pistons have done the past decade? Probably cause it isn't as easy as you are making it out to be, and Dumars may deserve a little more respect than you give him.

Fact is they won one title, so did three other teams, they didn't even have the best winning percentage of the decade and played in a weak conference.

I give him a great deal of respect for those 6 seasons..since the end of 2005..he has been terrible, not bad, terrible, look at the list of succesful draft choices and their contributions of note to the franchise..after Tayshaun Prince then who do you count??

And yet he has the 4th best record of the decade. Seems pretty impressive to me that you can have 10 years of success without drafting well!

2000-2002 were not a success and 2008 and 2009 were not a success.

Dallas had a great record for heavens sakes..championships define success.

Why does that matter? I can name teams that have signed some GREAT players, but those teams don't have the record that the Dumars teams have had. I tend to measure success by wins and losses, and Dumars has done well in that department.

read above..they have had multiple sub .500 seasons...and where are they currently headed.

Regardless, you must admit that the experts disagree with you.

kind of an open ended question, as in depends on what your asking..did he build a great team..yep..has he built upon that one time success and trasitioned that team into the next era..nope..has he drafted well, nope has he signed many usefull FA since 2005..nope..

Again, wins and losses is all that matters. Let's worry about the future when it gets here. So far he has the 4th best record of the decade, and started it with nothing! Does he not deserve a chance to do it again?

he deserves the chance but what has he been doing since 2005, was this necessary, how many chances has he missed to begin the process, is he paying for incompetent scouting?? What makes you believe he can do it again?? Seems like he has had 5 years to make moves..the intial moves beginning with Billups trade, seem like more of the same bungling don't they??

I'm still not worried. Joe has proven that he can create.

Listen, other great GM's lost the touch, including the 2 greatest of all time West and Auerbach..I'm not feeling reassured.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know sports is becoming a "what have you done for me lately" business, but I look at the teams that have consistency & see them being the success stories. Look at the Lakers & Spurs. Consistent in the GM office. Consistent on the bench. A GM doesn't go from being really good to terrible. The NBA, more than any other league, is a player's league. Correction - is a STAR'S league. 1 player on a roster can elevate you to elite status. That Dumars was able to compete at the level he did, for as long as he did, while drafting where he did, is nothing short of amazing. When you transition out of that, there's going to be a period of adjustment. He has done a good job of clearing out cap space to set the team up for the next run.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RealGM: Basketball Wiretap Archives: Rockets, 76ers Could Swing Blockbuster

Rockets, 76ers Could Swing Blockbuster

The Rockets will consider trading Tracy McGrady to the 76ers if they are "knocked over" with the amount of talent in the deal, a source told Philly.com.

The source added that Houston will not deal McGrady for Elton Brand, but that they would be interested in a trade that includes Andre Iguodala and some of Philadelphia's younger talent.

The Rockets and Sixers have not talked in "more than a week", according to the source, making a deal unlikely, but said any swap involving Iguodala "has a chance."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There hasn't been a bigger fan of Dumars than I have been but I do think he's been reeling. The first thing that really bothered me was reading Rasheed's comments after Flip was fired and Billup's after the trade. Rasheed basically said he had no respect for Flip and according to Billups the mini-war with Flip cost them at least 1 championship. How did Dumars ignore this year after year?

The second thing that I can't defend is how he chose to dismantle/rebuild. Hiring Curry was a bad move. Trading Billups based on the assumption that Stuckey was the future PG was a bad move. Extending Rip was a bad move. Bringing Iverson in was a bad move. Clearing cap space to over-pay someone like Gordon was a bad move.

Dumars has dug a big hole. He's sitting on $51 million of salary heading into next season and it's hard to argue he has any kind of core or established direction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it is really hard to evaluate NBA GM's because one player can make all the difference. Quite often, it is just a matter of winning the lottery and getting that difference maker.

I like Del's trade a lot. Even if you don't like Hickson, any trade that unloads a bad contract for us without taking one back in return is a good trade.

Here is another idea:

Detroit Gets: J.R. Smith, Ty Lawson, Renaldo Balkman, Malik Allen

Denver Gets: Rip Hamilton, Rodney Stuckey

I won't discuss the merits of Detroit doing this trade because I think they are obvious. Why would Denver do this trade? Because they are in win now mode and not quite as good as the Lakers yet. Hamilton is a big upgrade over Afflalo at shooting guard. Stuckey and Smith are basically a wash, both in age, potential, and skill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.hoopsworld.com/HeadlineStories.asp?lc=NBA&c=1&TEAM_ID=&PLAYER_ID=&hd=20100103#STORY_23420

Hornets to Trade Mo Pete, Armstrong?

New Orleans Hornets veteran shooting guard Morris Peterson has been out of the rotation since Jeff Bower took over coaching duties for Byron Scott last month, and his future with the franchise is uncertain because he could be traded before next month's deadline.

"I don't feel like I've got a chance yet, but I know it's a long season, " Peterson said before Saturday night's 98-95 win over the Houston Rockets at the New Orleans Arena. "I'm prepared to play, and that's always going to be my mindset."

Bower acknowledged that Peterson has continued to work despite limited playing time and suggested his rotation can always change.

"I think we're always watching performance and measuring it for guys in the rotation and for the other guys working to grab a spot, " Bower said.

Backup center Hilton Armstrong also has lost his spot in Bower's rotation because of inconsistent play. With his inability to fill expectations, Armstrong could be another player the Hornets could be looking to trade before next month's deadline to clear salary off their cap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RealGM: Basketball Wiretap Archives: O'Connor Hints Jazz Are Close To Deal

O'Connor Hints Jazz Are Close To Deal

Jazz general manager Kevin O'Connor suggests that a trade could be imminent.

O'Connor hinted to the Deseret News that he's spoken to multiple teams about trade possibilities and that a deal could go down as early as Tuesday.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      96,450
    • Total Posts
      2,876,408
  • Who's Online (See full list)

  • Upcoming Events

    No upcoming events found
×
×
  • Create New...