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JonBenke

MLB Winter Meetings/Granderson Jackson Trade Thread

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Don't post insider stuff, you'll get the board in trouble.

I like this trade a lot. Gives the Tigers some flexibility and a great injection of young talent.

Granderson is in decline and they got a better replacement for Jackson. Great trade for the Tigers going forward. Great trade for the Yankees who always live in the now.

no prob..when I have in the past I have always just taken a comment or a partial paragraph..today..I posted a little more..

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You're talking about ONE major-league executive, not MLB scouts/executiveS.

There are many ML scouts/executives who make horrible mistakes every year. Now, if this individual executive were to be named and is highly respected, that changes the story. But some bozo from the Pirates? Then yes, his opinion wouldn't mean squat.

It's not just one....I've received texts, emails, phone calls, tons of communication today from scouts, coaches, front office types, etc., and I've heard nary a one say they don't like the deal for the Tigers. Once AL Central official I exchanged emails with today basically said the reaction around him today was "Oh Sh**! We're going to have to do something to keep up long term." When I asked if that meant they weren't worried about 2010, he responded "Oh no, we're still worried about next year. That pitching is f'n stupid good!"

It's a pretty common sentiment among industry insiders, that the Tigers did very well in this deal....

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It's not just one....I've received texts, emails, phone calls, tons of communication today from scouts, coaches, front office types, etc., and I've heard nary a one say they don't like the deal for the Tigers. Once AL Central official I exchanged emails with today basically said the reaction around him today was "Oh Sh**! We're going to have to do something to keep up long term." When I asked if that meant they weren't worried about 2010, he responded "Oh no, we're still worried about next year. That pitching is f'n stupid good!"

It's a pretty common sentiment among industry insiders, that the Tigers did very well in this deal....

Irrelevant. Grandy is nice and well spoken.

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I could actually stomach another Yankees WS win if Grandy gets a ring. Can't think of a more deserving person.

+1.

If the Tigers can't win it, I would love to see Curtis help the Yankees win. And for anyone who knows me, I went from a ABTY (anybody but the Yankees) fan to the Yankees being my 2nd favorite team in a matter of hours.

Losing Curtis is a dark day for sports for the city of Detroit. Mark down December 8th as a day of a BIG mistake.

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You're talking about ONE major-league executive, not MLB scouts/executiveS.

There are many ML scouts/executives who make horrible mistakes every year. Now, if this individual executive were to be named and is highly respected, that changes the story. But some bozo from the Pirates? Then yes, his opinion wouldn't mean squat.

Actually the post you responded to was the 3 or 4th one that I'd made with quotes from MLB executives/scouts praising the deal on the Tigers side. So you're engaging in some cherry picking.

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Losing Curtis is a dark day for sports for the city of Detroit. Mark down December 8th as a day of a BIG mistake.

Let me get this straight. We traded away a free-swinging version of Marquis Grissom for a large amount of young talent, one of which could very well become our leadoff hitter, another of which will be a rock in our starting rotation for years to come, and you're making this is being a day that will live in infamy?

I understand that Curtis is a great guy. But baseball is a business. The Tigers saw an opportunity to trade to make their team better not only today, but for the future, and they took it.

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It's not just one....I've received texts, emails, phone calls, tons of communication today from scouts, coaches, front office types, etc., and I've heard nary a one say they don't like the deal for the Tigers. Once AL Central official I exchanged emails with today basically said the reaction around him today was "Oh Sh**! We're going to have to do something to keep up long term." When I asked if that meant they weren't worried about 2010, he responded "Oh no, we're still worried about next year. That pitching is f'n stupid good!"

It's a pretty common sentiment among industry insiders, that the Tigers did very well in this deal....

which is interesting because one of the subplots i've been thinking about for a while was how we're going to prepare to compete in future years with the youth movement that is going on in cleveland right now. they have a ton of young talent on their mlb squad/in their system. fwiw, at this point, if verlander is inked long term, i like our pitching a lot-enough that i think it would trump their hitting long term. you can always find useful bats to plug holes.

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Perhaps this is posted further back- everytime I leave for a while pages and pages are added.

If Sizemore/Avila/Jackson work out than in 2011 with Inge and Ordonez gone we will have openings in positions typically filled by power hitters. $10's of millions will be available to buy these hitters.

So who will be the free agent third basemen and corner outfileders available next year? I'll have to look into it over the holidays.

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I think it's too early to judge this deal. If Granderson doesn't improve his hitting; if Scherzer gets hurt; if Austin Jackson hits; these are all factors that could make or break this deal.

I'll give my opinion in a couple of years, but I thought Granderson was a great Tiger, one of my favorites of all time, actually.

Of the 1000+ posts appearing in this thread, the above may be the most sensible. It is certainly among the better ones.

I haven't the slightest idea who "won" this trade and neither does anybody else, including very likely the executives of the teams involved.

For the Tigers, I don't know how anybody can interpret the trade as anything other than a big gamble. The players they got may have huge upside, but each is unproven at the MLB level. Scherzer, I guess, comes closest to being accomplished; and, even then, his 9-11, 4.12 2009 in a weaker league with no DH isn't exactly to die for (and neither is the fact that he faded about as badly as Jackson did: 3-5, 4.73 in his last 10 games).

The others? Who the hell knows how they'll do? Schlereth, for example, may be the next Billy Wagner ... or, more likely (because most prospects fail), he could be another Steve Colyer (his apprehension of the strike zone seems pretty meager to me).

We just don't know how these players are going to perform over the next several years, and obsessing over who got the better of the deal at this early date isn't wise.

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Of the 1000+ posts appearing in this thread, the above may be the most sensible. It is certainly among the better ones.

I haven't the slightest idea who "won" this trade and neither does anybody else, including very likely the executives of the teams involved.

For the Tigers, I don't know how anybody can interpret the trade as anything other than a big gamble. The players they got may have huge upside, but each is unproven at the MLB level. Scherzer, I guess, comes closest to being accomplished; and, even then, his 9-11, 4.12 2009 in a weaker league with no DH isn't exactly to die for (and neither is the fact that he faded about as badly as Jackson did: 3-5, 4.73 in his last 10 games).

The others? Who the hell knows how they'll do? Schlereth, for example, may be the next Billy Wagner ... or, more likely (because most prospects fail), he could be another Steve Colyer (his apprehension of the strike zone seems pretty meager to me).

We just don't know how these players are going to perform over the next several years, and obsessing over who got the better of the deal at this early date isn't wise.

It's called scouting..and in fairness, considering the .249 average and the 10 HR's and 5.00 ERA for the second half of 2009, you could easily apply the same litmus test to who we traded, couldn't we??

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Another crazy thought to this deal would be to minimize Scherzer's medical issues, and maximize his effectiveness, and make him the closer. He definitely has upper-tier closer type of potential.

If the Tigers traded a good #3 SP and a top-level CF for a closer prospect and two middle relievers, I'll be furious.

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I'm seeing people say the Yankees won it and the D'backs lost, bigtime, and the Tigers are more of a wait and see based on how some of the younger guys turn out.

And you can add me to the list of people that say that. I don't see any reason to be overly angry or overly happy right now, as a Tiger fan. I'm pleased that we have Schzerer. Not too happy about not having Granderson. Overall, I don't think the Tigers lost or won, but I think the potential exists for them to either lose or win going forward. There are things to like about the trade, and things not to like. How they handle the rest of the off-season will affect my view of the trade. For instance, if they sign Cameron to a short-term deal, I instantly love the trade, because it addresses the gaping hole in CF that was created.

I don't believe this was a "salary dump", though I do think the fact that they acquired four players will high payroll flexibility was a major component of the deal.

I believe the Tigers clearly took a step back in 2010 (at the moment). They are worse now than they were yesterday.

However, they are not MUCH worse now. I think as currently composed they could finish in 3rd place and win a high 70s number of games. I don't think they suddenly suck.

I also believe they've positioned themselves to be much better in 2011 and beyond.

And I think --- Considering how early it is in the current off-season --- There are still moves that could be made that would make the 2010 Tigers better than the 2009 Tigers.

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I think it's too early to judge this deal. If Granderson doesn't improve his hitting; if Scherzer gets hurt; if Austin Jackson hits; these are all factors that could make or break this deal.

I'll give my opinion in a couple of years, but I thought Granderson was a great Tiger, one of my favorites of all time, actually.

How DARE you have a rational post?

Oh well, good point. But I'm not sure if I want to cry or break something over trading Curtis. He was my Tiger! Well, as a position player. Verlander goes to the top now.

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So a year later is there anyone who doesn't think we got a good return for Matt Joyce?

1 very good season of pitching (great 2/3, subpar 1/3) that probably earned a lot of $ last season at the gates, and basically netting us Scherzer with 5 years under team control for a season of Joyce where he hardly played in MLB. I think that is a pretty great return for Joyce.

I said yesterday that if they made a trade of value for Jackson I would close the book on that trade. I am a man of my word. Tigers win.

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We just don't know how these players are going to perform over the next several years, and obsessing over who got the better of the deal at this early date isn't wise.

Agree. I think as of December 8, 2009 all three teams got players they needed/wanted. I love the youth we got, and we cleared some salary at the same time, props to DD!...like you said we will just have to wait and see

GET THE VERLANDER CONTRACT DONE NOW

Edited by TheGreatTrendkill

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Scouting, eh?

I'll have to remember that ... I wonder what that's all about.

If Benke only knew. :wink:

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I'm not smart enough or prescient enough to say who won this trade. If the Tigers get the "on paper" potential out of these guys, I'll be very happy about it. I'm glad DD is going out and trying to sculpt a team for the future without gutting it for the present.

I'm sorry to see Grandy go. I'll always root against the Yankees, but I'll be rooting for their center fielder against 28 teams.

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My initial take is I would have thought the Tigers could/should have been able to wring more out of the Yankees than they did. The Yankees got a steal in my view (as well as many others), so I would think the Yankees would have been willing to part with more, and frankly I would have demanded it. But that is just me.

I also agree with this.

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I'd like to get reaction on whether people think this was payroll related. I think it wasn't. Here's what I wrote on WSI arguing that it wasn't.

White Sox Interactive Forums - View Single Post - Confirmed: Granderson to Yanks

It's not spin. I watched these guys every game. If it were Verlander or Porcello or Cabrera, you'd have an argument. But Jackson and Granderson both have a legitimate downside and question marks assigned to them.

Jackson was a top draftee and is now going to his fourth organization. There's a reason he was traded to the Tigers for Matt Joyce. Yes he looked to have a breakout year and finally achieve what they always thought he would. But check his second half. You may be surprised. Is it someone coming down to earth after putting up ungodly numbers? Is it someone getting tired? Or was it a fluke? Or was the first half a fluke? There's a risk to keeping him because maybe the 2008 and second half 2009 Edwin Jackson is the real deal and suddenly you lose any chance to get value for him. As it is now they get a younger version.

And for Granderson, check out his numbers against lefties. No one loved him more than I did but it got very frustrating watching him not only do poorly against lefties but do extremely poor. Until the last week or 10 days of the season, his only big hit in 2009 was that double off of Jenks in that July Saturday game. He could very well be at a crossroads for his career where instead of the all around superstar he'll end up being a $13 million platoon guy.

Both players have question marks and the Tigers sold high on them. I'm not saying they will be bad players but that that this wasn't simply a salary dump.

With both guys they got younger alternatives with potential to be just as good. Is it a risk? Sure. If it were not then they would have gotten better players.

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While I too am sorry to see Granderson go, this deal may force the Tigers to actually find a legitimate leadoff hitter who doesn't strikeout 140 times in a season.

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Ughh.....I am not happy about this at all. I have the same feeling I had when we traded Travis Fryman. Pisses me right off, and then we throw Edwin Jackson in a deal too. WTF.

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