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wingnut736

Matt Stafford vs. Mark Sanchez

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Sanchez certainly has been garbage lately. Is his team responsible for that as well?

Honestly, who cares. I'm not trying to play devil's advocate, I just don't understand this rationale. One week stats are the last word around here, the next week they don't mean anything - it's the "intangibles" that tell the true story. And there's a suspicious correlation between those two positions and Stafford's performance week to week. Some of you guys should consider running for office - you have promising political careers ahead of you.

Except that I have been firmly in Stafford's camp far before he was a Lion, because I saw him being able to do exactly what he did in yesterday's game because of what he did in college.

Sanchez's team has gotten worse as time has gone on, they lost Leon Washington, they lost Kris Jenkins, their defense now has a lot of tape out there (allowing offenses to prepare for their blitz schemes) and the Jets have been in position where they have needed plays from their QB (something they didn't need early on in the season).

One weeks stats are irrelevant to the overall evaluation of a QB - players have bad games, teammates have bad games, everyone has bad games. Stafford has a body of work to support the notion that what we saw yesterday, the high production, the poise, the toughness, the ability to lead a team back, wasn't a fluke. Sanchez does not. Sanchez never faced adversity before he reached the NFL (the one game he ever faces a 4th quarter deficit he lost), Sanchez never knew what it was like playing with the inferior team, Sanchez wasn't considered a top 5 QB until he started talking to coaches (charisma doesn't typically translate on the field).

Now Sanchez DOES have talent. He can be DEVELOPED into a star QB. But he was never anywhere near the product Stafford was.

Edited by Stormin' Norman

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Except that I have been firmly in Stafford's camp far before he was a Lion' date=' because I saw him being able to do exactly what he did in yesterday's game because of what he did in college.

Sanchez's team has gotten worse as time has gone on, they lost Leon Washington, they lost Kris Jenkins, their defense now has a lot of tape out there (allowing offenses to prepare for their blitz schemes) and the Jets have been in position where they have needed plays from their QB (something they didn't need early on in the season).

One weeks stats are irrelevant to the overall evaluation of a QB - players have bad games, teammates have bad games, everyone has bad games. Stafford has a body of work to support the notion that what we saw yesterday, the high production, the poise, the toughness, the ability to lead a team back, wasn't a fluke. Sanchez does not. Sanchez never faced adversity before he reached the NFL (the one game he ever faces a 4th quarter deficit he lost), Sanchez never knew what it was like playing with the inferior team, Sanchez wasn't considered a top 5 QB until he started talking to coaches (charisma doesn't typically translate on the field).

Now Sanchez DOES have talent. He can be DEVELOPED into a star QB. But he was never anywhere near the product Stafford was.[/quote']

I don't necessarily agree with 100% of this, but I appreciate the thoughtful response Norm.

Fair enough. I sure hope you're right about yesterday not being a fluke. Believe me, I want this kid to succeed as much as anyone. Like a total idiot, I've been wagging my tail following this team around since '68 and have heard enough spinning over the last 3+ decades to rival the ones people put on here about Stafford. At the risk of getting flamed by his fawning toadies for simply being objective, I'll continue to maintain a critical view - especially when it concerns Lion quarterbacks. Stafford showed some heart yesterday and can definitely zip the ball around, but that certainly doesn't make me want to fall at his feet kissing his robe like some boot-licking idolizer who pretends to be absolutely certain about stuff nobody can be certain about. I know this frustrates the hell out of the dancing monkeys who don't understand why I can't just "feel the wonder of it all" like they do, but I don't really give a sh**.

This is also not the first time I've seen a Lion QB show some heart by pulling himself up and continue playing hurt after getting smoked.

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Ideally, in 10 or so years, we will have a Stafford vs. Manning thread that asks if Stafford's accomplishments in his first 10 years is equal to or better than what Peyton Manning accomplished his first 10 years.

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Ideally, in 10 or so years, we will have a Stafford vs. Manning thread that asks if Stafford's accomplishments in his first 10 years is equal to or better than what Peyton Manning accomplished his first 10 years.

Ideally, the same goes for Kevin Smith vs Adrian Peterson. Levy vs Ray Lewis, Avril vs Strahan, Dizon vs LT, et al. I wonder if Jonny Mac will call you out for doing the opposite of what he claims happened in week 3.

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Ideally, the same goes for Kevin Smith vs Adrian Peterson. Levy vs Ray Lewis, Avril vs Strahan, Dizon vs LT, et al. I wonder if Jonny Mac will call you out for doing the opposite of what he claims happened in week 3.

How is saying "hopefully in 10 years we will be comparing him to Manning" at all on the same level as saying "he is clearly not as good as Sanchez"? Please explain that one to me :confused:

Now if he had compared him and said he is as good as Manning now or will be as good as Manning or something to that effect then maybe you are on to something. But that is not what he said.

Edited by Johnny Mac

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One weeks stats are irrelevant to the overall evaluation of a QB - players have bad games, teammates have bad games, everyone has bad games. Stafford has a body of work to support the notion that what we saw yesterday, the high production, the poise, the toughness, the ability to lead a team back, wasn't a fluke.

One week's stats don't mean anything....except for last weeks! :)

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One week's stats don't mean anything....except for last weeks! :)

Last week's, or the week before that or his game against the Redskins, or his game against the Bears, etc.

Edited by Stormin' Norman

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One week's stats don't mean anything....except for last weeks! :)

All I compared with this thread was their entire seasons. I never did a game-by-game stat breakdown, just a season total. 11 weeks is a good portion of their respective rookie seasons, so it's a fair point at which to compare their stats. I'll do it again at the end of the year as well. Thus far, Stafford's stats are superior to Sanchez's in almost every category. We'll see if it remains that way 6 weeks from now.

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I will say, it sure is nice to see a guy with a pair of stones at QB - especially after Joey.

I think I'd have to dial all the way back to Eric Hipple for the last Lion QB with some real guts. I lost count of how many times I watched that guy get creamed - and always admired how he just kept getting up. He certainly wasn't the most talented QB, but he had a Lion-sized heart.

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I'm sure a lot of guys here remember the Brantley hit.

LiveLeak.com - Buccaneer Scott Brantley Nails Eric Hipple (1985)

I like the way Eric tries to immediately get right back up before a trainer prevents him from doing it. It's one thing to get jacked up and agonize over hurt ribs or a shoulder, but to get cracked in the head like this and instinctively try to will yourself to your feet takes some heart.

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Ideally, the same goes for Kevin Smith vs Adrian Peterson. Levy vs Ray Lewis, Avril vs Strahan, Dizon vs LT, et al. I wonder if Jonny Mac will call you out for doing the opposite of what he claims happened in week 3.

Why would the media compare our mid round draft picks to a bunch of 1st and 2nd rounders? The whole reason media would hopefully be comparing Stafford to Manning is because their situations are similar.

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Last week's' date=' or the week before that or his game against the Redskins, or his game against the Bears, etc.[/quote']

But not the Rams...or the Seahawks...or the Saints....

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I'm sure a lot of guys here remember the Brantley hit.

LiveLeak.com - Buccaneer Scott Brantley Nails Eric Hipple (1985)

I like the way Eric tries to immediately get right back up before a trainer prevents him from doing it. It's one thing to get jacked up and agonize over hurt ribs or a shoulder, but to get cracked in the head like this and instinctively try to will yourself to your feet takes some heart.

What is also interesting (to me, at least) is that such a hit today would be penalized and the announcer would lament the helmet-to-helmet hit, but the announcers then viewed it (and announced it as) a clean hit.

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All I compared with this thread was their entire seasons. I never did a game-by-game stat breakdown, just a season total. 11 weeks is a good portion of their respective rookie seasons, so it's a fair point at which to compare their stats. I'll do it again at the end of the year as well. Thus far, Stafford's stats are superior to Sanchez's in almost every category. We'll see if it remains that way 6 weeks from now.

The thing is doing this sort of a comparison immediately after one has a great week and the other has a poor week may have the appearance of cherry picking for some.

And some might suggest the fact the relative quality of the quarterback stats for the two can change so much after one game, even 11 weeks into the season, suggests it might be best to simply wait until the end of the year before attempting to draw any conclusions.

I thought Stafford was the better prospect coming into the draft, and based on 11 weeks of NFL play, I think Stafford has been the more effective player in the NFL, overall. Moving forward, I think Stafford's upside is greater than Sanchez'.

I personally wouldn't feel comfortable attempting to claim anything stronger than that at this point.

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But not the Rams...or the Seahawks...or the Saints....

Why would anyone assume that the performance of a player in his first NFL game and his first games returning from a knee injury are a better indicator of his ability than the rest of his play this season? Except, of course, someone wanted that player to look bad.

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Why would anyone assume that the performance of a player in his first NFL game and his first games returning from a knee injury are a better indicator of his ability than the rest of his play this season? Except' date=' of course, someone wanted that player to look bad.[/quote']

I don't want Stafford to look bad, I want to take a realistic assessment of who he is and what he's done.

My entire sense of self-worth is not wrapped up in whether Matt Stafford fails or succeeds.

Here is what I think of Matt Stafford:

He's a good QB prospect. He has tremendous ability. Even though I would have chosen someone else, he is a worthy number pick for the Lions. He can be a central part of their rebuilding plan. He is not yet a good NFL quarterback. He is not yet consistent enough. It is hard to judge him because the team around him isn't very good. He will get better. The Lions will get better.

There. You can stop misrepresenting how I feel about Matt Stafford now.

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Interesting news about Sanchez..

New York Jets install new code system to help struggling quarterback Mark Sanchez - ESPN

FLORHAM PARK, N.J. -- Mark Sanchez had big plans for an early Thanksgiving buffet, inviting everyone in the New York Jets organization to come to his place.

After a four-interception, five-turnover performance at New England, the rookie quarterback thought he might be a bit lonely at the dinner table Monday night.

"I was a little surprised by the turnout after the game," he said Wednesday with a huge grin. "I was really happy about it. It was great. It meant a lot to me."

See, Mark: You're still The Sanchize, even if things aren't so great lately.

"It's one of those things where you have to keep fighting, keep playing and keep your confidence," he said. "The team has definitely kept their confidence in me, and that's encouraging."

So is the fact that coach Rex Ryan has decided to take a greater role on the offensive side of the ball after focusing almost solely on defense. Ryan has installed a code system in an attempt to help cut down Sanchez's mistakes and provide him with a clearer idea of the tasks at hand.

"Basically it's helping him manage when he gets out on the field to understand maybe the parameters, maybe the game situations and all that kind of stuff," Ryan said.

The code words -- which Sanchez said probably wouldn't make sense to most others -- are reminders of when the offense needs to be more cautious or can take some chances down the field.

"We practiced it a little bit today," Sanchez said. "When we're just starting the game, maybe we're a little more conservative here, or it's, 'Hey, man, you just completed your last nine passes. Let's go. Let one rip. Give our guy a shot.' He's got a code for it, so it's good."

At this point, Sanchez will take all the help he can get. After a terrific start, he has struggled mightily as his 16 interceptions rank as the second most in the NFL. His 61.1 quarterback rating is the worst of any current starter. Sanchez has also had at least three games in which he cost the Jets opportunities at victories because of turnovers.

"A couple of times, pressing a little bit too hard," he said. "I'm trying to do a little too much."

Ryan said Monday that his getting more involved in offense was not at all a slight to offensive coordinator Brian Schottenheimer. He reiterated that point Wednesday.

"I just wanted to say that, 'Hey, obviously, this is my responsibility,'" Ryan said. "That's the way I'm going to approach it. I don't want to pass it off on anybody else. I'm going to make sure that Mark knows what we need as a football team and what we can't have in those particular times in the game."

Sanchez had four touchdowns and two interceptions in the Jets' first three games, all wins. He has thrown for more than one score in just one game since and has four games with two interceptions or more. In the Jets' last two games against the Jacksonville Jaguars and Patriots, he has six picks.

"You can't just give games away like that," Sanchez said.

He didn't think things would be easy after a 3-0 start, but he also didn't expect to struggle as he and the team have.

"A lot of guys asked after our first loss, 'Well, you didn't expect to win all of them, did you?'" he said. "I was like, 'Well, kinda. Why not?' That's maybe just being a rookie, but at the same time, that's just how I feel. We're going to win. I haven't been playing like that lately and it hasn't looked like it on the field, but we're going to win."

Ryan has maintained that Sanchez gives the team the best chance to win, and for those clamoring for him to be benched, consider this: He has the most starting experience in the NFL at the position on the Jets' roster. His 10 starts are already two more than Kellen Clemens has made in his first three-plus seasons.

"It's absolutely a steep learning curve," Sanchez said.

Oh, and if you're wondering if Sanchez whipped anything together to serve at his big buffet, he'll stick to playbooks over cookbooks.

"We had it catered," he said, laughing. "It was perfect. I have a lot of work to do other than in the kitchen."

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Update after week 12:

Stafford

190/351 (54.1%) 2124 yards 12 TD 18 INT 18 rushes/110 yards (6.1 avg) 2 TD 4 fumbles, 1 lost

Sanchez

151/282 (53.5%) 1945 yards 10 TD 17 INT 28 rushes/88 yards (3.1 avg) 3 TD 9 fumbles, 3 lost

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Update after week 12:

Stafford

190/351 (54.1%) 2124 yards 12 TD 18 INT 18 rushes/110 yards (6.1 avg) 2 TD 4 fumbles, 1 lost

Sanchez

151/282 (53.5%) 1945 yards 10 TD 17 INT 28 rushes/88 yards (3.1 avg) 3 TD 9 fumbles, 3 lost

Can those of us looking at this situation through unbiased eyes admit that they're both having terrible years, which is to be expected for any NFL rookie QB? I wouldn't think that would be difficult to admit, even for the Stafford-slappies.

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Can those of us looking at this situation through unbiased eyes admit that they're both having terrible years, which is to be expected for any NFL rookie QB? I wouldn't think that would be difficult to admit, even for the Stafford-slappies.

Definitely agree with this, but would like to point out the obvious & say that Sanchez is on the better team, has a better OL in front of him, yet still has a lower completion percentage & QB rating.

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Can those of us looking at this situation through unbiased eyes admit that they're both having terrible years, which is to be expected for any NFL rookie QB? I wouldn't think that would be difficult to admit, even for the Stafford-slappies.

Absolutely. They both turn the ball over wayyy too much. Stafford has 18 picks (once every 20 passes) and 1 lost fumble (19 turnovers), Sanchez has 17 picks (once every 16 passes) and 3 lost fumbles (20 turnovers). Neither completes a high % of passes, and both have low yards per attempt.

The difference, though, is that Stafford is forced to throw the ball much more than Sanchez due to a complete lack of a running game. Sanchez only threw 17 passes this week, and hasn't thrown more than 35 in a game all year, and only over 30 twice. Stafford threw 43 passes this week, and has thrown 42, 51, 43, and 43 respectively the last 4 weeks. He has never attempted less than 30 passes in a game.

Stafford averages 39 passes a game, Sanchez averages 25.

The Lions' RB's have rushed for 869 yards on 249 attempts this season. The Jets' RB's have rushed for 1564 yards on 331 attempts. The Jets have an offensive line. The Lions do not.

Sanchez and Stafford have very comparable numbers in almost every category. Stafford is a little bit ahead of Sanchez in most, but not by much. The difference is Stafford has almost nothing to work with except a great WR who is seemingly never 100%. Sanchez has an offensive line and solid weapons around him.

I'm not a Stafford lover by any means, but I do want the kid to succeed, and I'm pretty happy with his progress, and it's pretty clear he's doing better than Sanchez so far. Emphasis on so far.

Edited by wingnut736

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The Jets have running backs.

Also, what are the sacked against numbers?

Edited by cruzer1

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Can those of us looking at this situation through unbiased eyes admit that they're both having terrible years, which is to be expected for any NFL rookie QB? I wouldn't think that would be difficult to admit, even for the Stafford-slappies.

they are both obviously playing like rookies, but Stafford has still looked better to me of the two.

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The Jets have running backs.

Also, what are the sacked against numbers?

Stafford 21

Sanchez 20

Both are reasonable numbers. Stafford missed a couple games but as been in far more sack friendly situations than Sanchez.

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This week's FO ratings have Sanchez back in front. Not a surprise.

What might be more of a surprise is that Josh Freeman is well ahead of both of them.

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