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caseyo4

Granderson now on the block too?

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As for what they provide for their team:

Tori Hunter

Dernard Span

Jacoby Ellsbury

Shane Victorino

Carlos Beltran

Matt Kemp

Put Granderson down in the order and he's valuable as a second tier CF.

Add

Adam Jones

Grady Sizemore (remember him)

Franklyn Gutierrez

with

Jay Bruce

Andrew McCutcheon

both coming up on the outside.

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Adam Jones

Grady Sizemore (remember him)

Franklyn Gutierrez

with

Jay Bruce

Andrew McCutcheon

both coming up on the outside.

Adam Jones..........absolutely............can't believe I forgot him.

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What stats show that Granderson is in the top 5 CFs?

Any good total player value stat for the period 2007-2009. I think whether someone thinks he is top 5 would depend on whether they thought the real Granderson was 2009 or the average of 2007-2009. I personally think his 2010-2012 seasons will be closer to the latter.

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Look its a goofy argument. Because right now, baseball has a dearth of CF..in 3 years they could have 10 good ones, so calling him top 5 is meaningless. Bottom line, he is a ridiculously overated player who spurs irrational loyalty based upon past performance and presidential calliber integrity. Buit integrity doesn't hit LHP for him and his defensive prowess is based upon a few spectacular catches more than cosnsistent performance, in fact his throwing is flat out poor, Grandy has digressed as a player over the last 2 seasons.

Wanna date him, I understand, but as a baseball player, he is a commodity, if some team wants to offer the Tigers return greater than his on field worth. I'm listening.

So, since I've never mentioned loyalty or integrity in any of my arguments, nor mentioned wanting to date him, but backed up my statements with performance based stats on both sides of the ball, until I see differently, I'll have to assume you have no argument. You've done nothing but snipe areas where he's weak. No doubt, he doesn't hit LHP well. In fact, he's terrible against lefties. No doubt, he doesn't have a great arm. It's about average.

However, overall, he's a top 5 CF.

http://www.motownsports.com/forums/detroit-tigers/76196-he-just-wont-let-die-3.html#post2007980

To address the topic once more:

Over the past three years, Granderson has, according to fangraphs, been the third best offensive CF in baseball, and the 7th best defensive CF in baseball.

Last year (2009), he was 14th best offensively and 8th best defensively.

In 2008 he was 3rd best offensively and 15th best defensively.

In 2007, he was 1st offensively and 3rd defensively.

It's clear to me he had a terrible year defensively in 2008, and will not be the defender he was in 2007 again. However, in 2009 he was solidly above average defensively in CF. While his offensive numbers are down in 2009, it's clear that some significant portion of that was due to a decline in his BABIP.

When you look at who is in these lists ahead of him, almost no one is consistent. As I said before, Matt Kemp is probably the only guy that I'd clearly take over Granderson. If you think there are others, make a real argument. The stats don't support it at this point, but you're welcome to give it a shot.

Rob

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The Yankees wouldn't give up Hughes for Johan Santana. It would be surprising if they did so for Curtis Granderson.

That wasn't a 1-for-1 or even a 2-for-1, though. Wasn't it 2 out of Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy, plus Jackson or Cabrera? Something like that. Anyway, Hughes past 2 years of spotty time in the rotation might have lessened their expectations. They're supposedly in on Lackey, so he could replace Chamberlain in the rotation and Chamberlain could slide back to the 8th inning. Or keep them both in the rotation and go with Coke, Robertson or a FA in the 8th.

Who knows - if the Yankees want a CF, they'll probably just sign Cameron, who supposedly they liked a lot last winter as a trade candidate.

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As for what they provide for their team:

Tori Hunter

Dernard Span

Jacoby Ellsbury

Shane Victorino

Carlos Beltran

Matt Kemp

Put Granderson down in the order and he's valuable as a second tier CF.

Kemp, definitely.

Victorino is close, I agree.

Ellsbury is not close. He hasn't been equal to or better than Granderson in any year.

Span is average or worse defensively in CF. His overall numbers were comparable in 2009, but not close in 2008.

Beltran is a super player, and was great in 2008. He was a non-factor this year, and is older.

Hunter is similar or a bit better overall to Granderson the last 2 years. Over the last 3, Grandy's awesome 2007 puts him up. Hunter is 5 years older.

Adam Jones is young and talented. So far, there is no reason to think he's anything like as good as Grandy. His defense this year was FAR worse, and his offense this year was roughly similar.

Sizemore is an outstanding player, and quite similar in value. He had a terrible year this year (worse than Granderson's).

Again, I think Kemp is the only player that is clearly superior. Beltran and Hunter are up there. Sizemore is in the same arena. But I'm totally comfortable calling Granderson a top 5 CF, and this has nothing to do with wanting to date him.

Rob

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Add

Adam Jones

Grady Sizemore (remember him)

Franklyn Gutierrez

with

Jay Bruce

Andrew McCutcheon

both coming up on the outside.

Guitterez was awesome defensively this year, but horrible offensively. No metric over the last two years puts him ahead or close to Grandy.

Bruce and McCutcheon are superb prospects. They may be top CF in the future. They are not now.

And I repeat. Jones is not close at this point. Bad defensively. Good power, good average. Mediocre plate discipline.

Rob

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Believe it or not Hughes is very available, not sure they would want him.

Why not? Because of his less than stellar SP run the past couple years or because the Tigers are focused more on hitting?

Acquiring Hughes would make it easier to trade Jackson for a hitter.

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Guitterez was awesome defensively this year, but horrible offensively.

Gutierrez was far from horrible offensively this year. He destroyed LHP and he was at least serviceable versus RHP. If Grandy would hit LHP (like in '08) as well as Gutierrez hits RHP, this thread probably wouldn't exist.

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So, since I've never mentioned loyalty or integrity in any of my arguments, nor mentioned wanting to date him, but backed up my statements with performance based stats on both sides of the ball, until I see differently, I'll have to assume you have no argument. You've done nothing but snipe areas where he's weak. No doubt, he doesn't hit LHP well. In fact, he's terrible against lefties. No doubt, he doesn't have a great arm. It's about average.

However, overall, he's a top 5 CF.

http://www.motownsports.com/forums/detroit-tigers/76196-he-just-wont-let-die-3.html#post2007980

To address the topic once more:

Over the past three years, Granderson has, according to fangraphs, been the third best offensive CF in baseball, and the 7th best defensive CF in baseball.

Last year (2009), he was 14th best offensively and 8th best defensively.

In 2008 he was 3rd best offensively and 15th best defensively.

In 2007, he was 1st offensively and 3rd defensively.

It's clear to me he had a terrible year defensively in 2008, and will not be the defender he was in 2007 again. However, in 2009 he was solidly above average defensively in CF. While his offensive numbers are down in 2009, it's clear that some significant portion of that was due to a decline in his BABIP.

When you look at who is in these lists ahead of him, almost no one is consistent. As I said before, Matt Kemp is probably the only guy that I'd clearly take over Granderson. If you think there are others, make a real argument. The stats don't support it at this point, but you're welcome to give it a shot.

Rob

Rob, once again it's relative. When you compare a hamburger to dog food, it's a delicacy, when you compare it to filet, not so much.

Not only myslef but other posters refuted your contention of top 5, with opinions of others who are better as of today. Because if Grandy was 2007 or 2008 Grandy we wouldn't be having this discussion. But he has trended downward in performance, both offensively and defensively.

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Everyone should be on the block all the time is how I look at it. Id always see what I could get for my players, doesnt mean they get traded, but I would always be willing to hear offers.

Agreed. Outside of Verlander, Cabrera, and Porcello, I'd listen to offers on everyone. Pull the trigger on the right deal for Grandy even, if it comes along.

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Agreed. Outside of Verlander, Cabrera, and Porcello, I'd listen to offers on everyone. Pull the trigger on the right deal for Grandy even, if it comes along.

Why not listen to offers for Cabrera , Verlander and Porcelo too? If you get the right offer for Granderson, then you do it. If you get the right offer for Cabrera then you do it.

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Seeing how the Tigers utilize Curtis in building their fan base, I'd be suprised if they move him, and I would be crushed if it happens this soon. But if a knockout offer comes along, they should entertain the idea, because it might be 2-3 years before the Tigers can rebuild toward another strong playoff run. But dealing him could impact attendance in the short term quite adversely.

I could almost live with Curtis going to the Cubs or Cardinals, because those are two of the best fan bases around, and they would treat him well. I can't picture him in pinstripes though, he doesn't strike me as a New York kind of guy i.e. not an ******* (sorry Sue!).

The timing of this seems strange - he's coming off one of his worst seasons ever IMHO, despite the surge in home runs.

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The Yankees wouldn't give up Hughes for Johan Santana. It would be surprising if they did so for Curtis Granderson.

Yeah, but that was how many years ago? Back then, they thought Ian Kennedy was an untouchable top prospect too.

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The Tigers need to get rid of everyone immediately, in order to get under the salary cap. Sell them all to the Yankees, they can afford to pay the salaries.

Strip the roster bare and go with guys out of AA. We can have the excitement of seeing Class AA players play in the majors. Remember how much fun that was the last time we tried it?

Tigers challenged Mets' futility record in 2003 | Detroit Tigers - - MLive.com

Edited by TJ

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Why not listen to offers for Cabrera , Verlander and Porcelo too?

Do you honestly think they can get good offers for them? I don't think so, which is why you build around your core.

St. Louis is taking offers for Albert Pujols.

If you get the right offer for Granderson, then you do it. If you get the right offer for Cabrera then you do it.

I agree, but the last one won't happen. Tell me, please, a realistic trade idea for Cabrera that would be both offered and would benefit the Tigers.

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Seeing how the Tigers utilize Curtis in building their fan base, I'd be suprised if they move him, and I would be crushed if it happens this soon. But if a knockout offer comes along, they should entertain the idea, because it might be 2-3 years before the Tigers can rebuild toward another strong playoff run. But dealing him could impact attendance in the short term quite adversely.

The timing of this seems strange - he's coming off one of his worst seasons ever IMHO, despite the surge in home runs.

I doubt they trade Granderson for the reasons you mentioned. The Jackson and Laird rumors sound more realistic to me.

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Do you honestly think they can get good offers for them? I don't think so, which is why you build around your core.

St. Louis is taking offers for Albert Pujols.

I agree, but the last one won't happen. Tell me, please, a realistic trade idea for Cabrera that would be both offered and would benefit the Tigers.

You are probably right about Cabrera because of his contract. They could get some tremendous offers for both Verlander and Porcello though. Most of them I wouldn't like but I'd say the same about Granderson.

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Kemp, definitely.

Victorino is close, I agree.

Ellsbury is not close. He hasn't been equal to or better than Granderson in any year.

Span is average or worse defensively in CF. His overall numbers were comparable in 2009, but not close in 2008.

Beltran is a super player, and was great in 2008. He was a non-factor this year, and is older.

Hunter is similar or a bit better overall to Granderson the last 2 years. Over the last 3, Grandy's awesome 2007 puts him up. Hunter is 5 years older.

Adam Jones is young and talented. So far, there is no reason to think he's anything like as good as Grandy. His defense this year was FAR worse, and his offense this year was roughly similar.

Sizemore is an outstanding player, and quite similar in value. He had a terrible year this year (worse than Granderson's).

Again, I think Kemp is the only player that is clearly superior. Beltran and Hunter are up there. Sizemore is in the same arena. But I'm totally comfortable calling Granderson a top 5 CF, and this has nothing to do with wanting to date him.

Rob

Wow, If I was grading this paper, I would give it a "C".

Ignore 2007 and 2008 or use their context correctly, because when you do, the trend points down pretty radically.

Name one single GM in baseball who values Granderson over Sizemore.

Name one GM, when both are healthy, who would prefer Granderson over Beltran.

Hunter is a more productive offenisve player than Granderson, especially in 2009 and 2009 is what were discussing.

If were going to start using 2007 and 2008 there are more players we can integrate into the analysis, heck, fat, bloated Vernon Wells can even be discussed then.

Age carries no relevance either, only production matters.

Edited by sportz4life

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The Yankees wouldn't give up Hughes for Johan Santana. It would be surprising if they did so for Curtis Granderson.

Well, that was a couple of years ago, Hughes is a setup man for them, not quite as valuable as the #1 prospect in baseball.

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The Yankees wouldn't give up Hughes for Johan Santana. It would be surprising if they did so for Curtis Granderson.

That was 2 years ago when the Yankees thought Hughes would be better than what he's been.

Truthfully, if we absolutely have to trade Grandy to the Yanks, I'd rather have Joba Chamberlian in that package, along with prospects and them taking Willis/Robertson/any other bad salary.

Frankly, I don't think Grandy's traded.

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The Yankees wouldn't give up Hughes for Johan Santana. It would be surprising if they did so for Curtis Granderson.

The Tigers wouldn't give up Michael Hollimon for Jack Wilson that same offseason... not that Wilson is anything special, but things change.

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Yeah, but that was how many years ago? Back then, they thought Ian Kennedy was an untouchable top prospect too.

Hughes is a bust????? Have you seen his numbers this year? Even if he were to stay in the bullpen forever, he is anything but a bust. Oh, and he's also just 23 years old.

Phil Hughes - New York Yankees - Split Statistics - MLB - Yahoo! Sports

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