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Tigers Acquire Aubrey Huff

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We overpaid for a salary dump. But I guess since he's a LHB and can play 3B in a pinch (probably better than Raburn), it made this move necessary. I can't get too upset about it, but I think we gave up too much in Jacobson, considering the O's didn't kick anything in for Huff's salary. Pretty much every other trade this season included cash to offset the salary of the player that was moved. The two exceptions seem to be Washburn and now Huff.

I'm not sure if it's a straight salary dump. It just didn't make much sense for Baltimore to hold on to Huff at this point. A couple of young players can get a six-week audition now. From the Orioles' perspective, perhaps the most important aspect of the deal is removing the offseason doubt about Huff. Should we offer arbitration? Would Huff accept? What draft picks might be involved?

I also appears that the savings from the Huff (and Sherrill) trades went directly into overpaying for some draft picks. It's gone a long way toward continuing to stock the farm.

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* Go to "User CP" in the blue bar near the top of this page.

* Under "Your Control Panel" -- the second column from the left -- there's a header "Settings and Options." Choose "edit ignore list," which is the last choice in that category.

* Add the name(s) you wish to put on that list.

* Rinse and repeat. :classic:

Or, click the poster's name in any post and choose "View Public Profile" to get to their profile.

Under their profile picture there is a drop down list titled "User Lists".

Select "Add to Ignore List" to get to the same screen you mentioned before, but twith the new name automatically added.

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After reading this entire thread I have decided to withhold judgement of this trade until I hear what Rod Allen has to say about it :wink:

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Listen, the only time I take the mickey out of you numbers people is when you start saying definitively that your opinions are right, and act like anyone who disagrees is wrong.

As I've said time and again, your data suggests, but does not prove. So perhaps a less authoritarian tone might mitigate these arguments.

In short, folks who sit behind computers crunching numbers should stop pretending they know so much more about baseball than other folks. Because.they.don't.

Want to see the fallacy in your arguments? Here goes:

The popular wisdom is that people's work is affected after their spouse dies. But I looked at 50,000 employees of a widget factory and compared those whose spouses died with those whose spouses didn't die, and I found no significant statistical drop in production. The number of widgets made by the group of employees whose spouses were alive is the same as those whose spouses died. And the quality control numbers were essentially the same.

Therefore, I'm going to use those stats to state definitively that the notion that people's work is affected by their spouse dying is wrong.

Well, no, it's not wrong. It only means that if you lump everyone together into a control group, the stats don't back up the hypothesis. In other words, the stats suggest a conclusion.

But there are so many other complex issues at play, why would anyone think this study proves something one way or another? And, most importantly, why would anyone dare to be so smug about that conclusion as to try to make anyone who dissented feel stupid?

And, Lee, before you say "but that hasn't happened in this thread," I suggest you go back and read the thread.

And, finally, anyone who doesn't like the way I post, may I suggest a simple solution: Put me on ignore. It's a fairly easy feature to master.

It's mob mentality and nobody but a few posters dare to take it on. It's a few people trying to control the thinking of a bigger group. I understand they feel they are challenging the status quo and they have some very interesting points. But it's why I dig in my heels and won't budge. It's not that I have to be right, I just know they aren't as smart as they think they are. As a matter of fact, I was using stats way before most of my peers. And I think they are important. But they can't explain everything that happens on a baseball field.

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After reading this entire thread I have decided to withhold judgement of this trade until I hear what Rod Allen has to say about it :wink:

He'll say it's a great pick-up.

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Rod will talk to him around the batting cage and then decide if it was a good move.

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Rod will talk to him around the batting cage and then decide if it was a good move.

"After seeing him in batting practice, I know this...he's not quite country strong. Maybe outer-suburbs strong..."

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Getting back to Larish. Another reason why I think this means they are done with him is if DD has been trying to get Huff for a long time why didn't Larish come up 2 weeks ago? At least give him a shot to do what you think Huff will do and then maybe you don't need to trade a young arm. The fact that they didn't bring him up tells me that they don't even want to bother seeing and don't think he will. They're mind is made up.

Am I crazy in thinking if Larish had hit up here that this move doesn't even get discussed?

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Listen, the only time I take the mickey out of you numbers people is when you start saying definitively that your opinions are right, and act like anyone who disagrees is wrong.

As I've said time and again, your data suggests, but does not prove. So perhaps a less authoritarian tone might mitigate these arguments.

In short, folks who sit behind computers crunching numbers should stop pretending they know so much more about baseball than other folks. Because.they.don't.

Want to see the fallacy in your arguments? Here goes:

The popular wisdom is that people's work is affected after their spouse dies. But I looked at 50,000 employees of a widget factory and compared those whose spouses died with those whose spouses didn't die, and I found no significant statistical drop in production. The number of widgets made by the group of employees whose spouses were alive is the same as those whose spouses died. And the quality control numbers were essentially the same.

Therefore, I'm going to use those stats to state definitively that the notion that people's work is affected by their spouse dying is wrong.

Well, no, it's not wrong. It only means that if you lump everyone together into a control group, the stats don't back up the hypothesis. In other words, the stats suggest a conclusion.

But there are so many other complex issues at play, why would anyone think this study proves something one way or another? And, most importantly, why would anyone dare to be so smug about that conclusion as to try to make anyone who dissented feel stupid?

And, Lee, before you say "but that hasn't happened in this thread," I suggest you go back and read the thread.

And, finally, anyone who doesn't like the way I post, may I suggest a simple solution: Put me on ignore. It's a fairly easy feature to master.

Every time one of us posts, do you want us to say that it strongly suggests something? Isn't that understood? Nothing is ever really proven as we as people are always trying to improve our understanding of everything in life. Likewise, you should say that the current data suggests that batting average and RBI are vastly inferior statistics to other stats like wOBA or Runs Created.

This argument that mounds of data does not prove anything is somewhat correct. But, it is that way in all walks of life. For example, there have been recent discoveries about sexual orientation that strongly suggest certain things that go against conventional wisdom or past ways of thinking, and I don't think I need to cite the thousands of journal articles that "strongly suggest" my point. Throughout history, what was once conventional wisdom or common sense is usually found to be incorrect. Whether it be medical treatments, the treatment of people of other races, the environment, our education system, etc, things change. We as people are always trying to improve and become more knowledgeable. If you want to ignore statistical evidence that strongly, strongly suggest something then by all means feel free to do so.

Edited by Scottwood

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There you go, Scott, comparing SABRs to Louis Pasteur and Martin Luther King and John Muir and even the Good Lord Jesus Christ Himself again.

And some of you wonder why people think you're arrogant. :ponder:

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Getting back to Larish. Another reason why I think this means they are done with him is if DD has been trying to get Huff for a long time why didn't Larish come up 2 weeks ago? At least give him a shot to do what you think Huff will do and then maybe you don't need to trade a young arm. The fact that they didn't bring him up tells me that they don't even want to bother seeing and don't think he will. They're mind is made up.

Am I crazy in thinking if Larish had hit up here that this move doesn't even get discussed?

You're not crazy. If Larish were good, he'd be here. His MLB career is basically 3 games and a lot of crap.

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There you go, Scott, comparing SABRs to Louis Pasteur and Martin Luther King and John Muir and even the Good Lord Jesus Christ Himself again.

And some of you wonder why people think you're arrogant. :ponder:

It does beat the debate of who to DFA Willis or Lambert.

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It's mob mentality and nobody but a few posters dare to take it on. It's a few people trying to control the thinking of a bigger group. I understand they feel they are challenging the status quo and they have some very interesting points. But it's why I dig in my heels and won't budge. It's not that I have to be right, I just know they aren't as smart as they think they are. As a matter of fact, I was using stats way before most of my peers. And I think they are important. But they can't explain everything that happens on a baseball field.

I think sabers as a group tend to be contrarian. That's why Bill James and many of his supporters will downplay the role of steroids in baseball (well, James also had a financial interest in keeping quiet about the issue).

James also continued insisting that Pete Rose hadn't gambled on baseball, when the overwhelming evidence was that he had. In fact, James famously called the Dowd Report a steaming pile of horsecrap. When he was proven wrong, James, as he is wont to do, simply never mentioned the issue again.

I see lots of value in looking at any situation more closely. In my job, it's a must. You should never have preconceived notions about anything. But you should also use common sense, too.

If a player is presented with an opportunity to drive in runs, and he does it, I fail to see how that's a useless stat. No, it doesn't tell everything, but it certainly isn't any more useless than OPS, because both stats need to be looked at in context, and more info should be sought out. But at least one poster here says I'm not worth talking to because I hold this opinion.

It's that attitude of "I'm smarter than you because my stats can kick your stats' butt" that annoys me. But it's also fun to take the mickey out of some of these guys.

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Again, Tyrus, I think you tend to mistake good rhetoric for arrogance.

So...

if you are saying that RBI is as valuable as OPS in measuring the repeatable skills of a player, you're simply not worth listening to.

...that's just good rhetoric?

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Tyrus - If you didn't keep making blanket statements, then you wouldn't continue to anger people like myself and Lee. Even God Himself, Bill James, is often the first to acknowlege that he doesn't have all of the answers. Words can't describe how pissed off I am at this point.

Certain people, who happen to be sabers, on this site annoy me to no end, and I've discussed this with you via PM before. I've confronted such foolishnees myself. But your categorization is far beyond any measure of fairness. I am so done discussing this with you. If you still can't grasp these simple concepts of interacting with those who opinions differ from your own, then I at long last give up. Go on conducting yourself like an *******, but I won't be listening to it. I do respect your right to say it, but I disagree with that conduct in the strongest terms.

Edited by DaYooperASBDT

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Every time one of us posts, do you want us to say that it strongly suggests something? Isn't that understood? Nothing is ever really proven as we as people are always trying to improve our understanding of everything in life. Likewise, you should say that the current data suggests that batting average and RBI are vastly inferior statistics to other stats like wOBA or Runs Created.

A good start would be avoiding snarky statements like "oh, yeah, he's clutch." Which, going through this thread a second time, seems to have been the flashpoint of all the bickering.

This argument that mounds of data does not prove anything is somewhat correct. But, it is that way in all walks of life. For example, there have been recent discoveries about sexual orientation that strongly suggest certain things that go against conventional wisdom or past ways of thinking, and I don't think I need to cite the thousands of journal articles that "strongly suggest" my point. Throughout history, what was once conventional wisdom or common sense is usually found to be incorrect. Whether it be medical treatments, the treatment of people of other races, the environment, our education system, etc, things change. We as people are always trying to improve and become more knowledgeable. If you want to ignore statistical evidence that strongly, strongly suggest something then by all means feel free to do so.

But even within the saber community, there are huge differences of opinion, which suggests to me that stats can be forged, skewed, shaded or manipulated to bolster arguments.

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If a player is presented with an opportunity to drive in runs, and he does it, I fail to see how that's a useless stat. No, it doesn't tell everything, but it certainly isn't any more useless than OPS, because both stats need to be looked at in context, and more info should be sought out. But at least one poster here says I'm not worth talking to because I hold this opinion.

That logical antecedent is something that does not show up in the RBI stat. Really, RBIs should be a rate stat. A guy on a good offensive team will get more RBIs given exactly the same hitting skills as a guy on a bad offensive team. OPS at least attempts to isolate the player. I don't like OPS because it combines two dissimilar things into one stat, but RBI is a stat that doesn't even measure what it's trying to measure (a player's ability to knock in runs) particularly well.

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Tyrus - If you didn't keep making blanket statements, then you wouldn't continue to anger people like myself and Lee. Even God Himself, Bill James, is often the first to acknowlege that he doesn't have all of the answers. Words can't describe how pissed off I am at this point.

Certain people, who happen to be sabers, on this site annoy me to no end, and I've discussed this with you via PM before. I've confronted such foolishnees myself. But your categorization is far beyond any measure of fairness. I am so done discussing this with you. If you still can't grasp these simple concepts of interacting with those who opinions differ from your own, then I at long last give up. Go on conducting yourself like an *******, but I won't be listening to it.

You are right. I do tend to make blanket statements about sabers. I apologize. I guess I should say "some sabers" -- just as some sabers should say "I think" rather than "I have proof."

You're absolutely right about this. I humbly stand corrected. It's not all sabers who act like this.

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I still can't fathom how anyone can get angry about these conversations. Buddha has has the only level headed post in this thread regarding stats vs tradition. The traditionalist is too busy trying to use hyperbole to make his point and the SABRs are too busy defending the superiority of their stats to listen.

Edited by sagnam

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A good start would be avoiding snarky statements like "oh, yeah, he's clutch." Which, going through this thread a second time, seems to have been the flashpoint of all the bickering.
This I do agree with, that is quite disrespectful.

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So...

...that's just good rhetoric?

I never said there weren't some jerks on the board ::shrug::

But, douchebaggery is not a quality isolated to stat geeks.

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But even within the saber community, there are huge differences of opinion, which suggests to me that stats can be forged, skewed, shaded or manipulated to bolster arguments.

There are huge differences of opinions amongst people in all professions. That is how you grow as an industry. In a business, the last thing you want is a bunch of "yes" men who agree with everything you say. What you want are people who come from a similar line of thought but still have different opinions with different point of views.

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