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Leyland pulling starters has cost the Tigers to many games this year

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Leyland usually leaves starters in too long, not the opposite. (I agree about tonight though)

Of course, perhaps if he hadn't left in Magglio to bat vs a righty with 2 guys on (and then REPLACED HIM IMMEDIATELY DEFENSIVELY ANYWAY) and then had no one warming with Miner blowing the game I would cut him a bit more slack for not letting Porcello finish the game.

And of course if Clete Thomas catches the triple then Leyland is a genius.

Also I do like Jim Leyland, he seems like a cool guy and I enjoy having him on the Tigers, that doesn't mean he doesn't make lots of idiotic decisions that I hate though. Lots of bad managers have had winning teams, Joe Torre is a complete idiot and look at what he accomplished. I think it's pretty hard to mess up Verlander and Jackson this year.

I am glad I am not the only one who hated how Jim handled the offensive half of the 8th.

With a 3/4 motion hard throwing RHP (Masterston) on the mound in the 8th, a runner on, nobody down, in a 1-run game, Jim chooses to leave Magglio in to bat. This is the absolute worst type of pitcher for Magglio to face. Predictably, Magglio strikes out, (ugly AB), then Cabrera singles. Marcus Thames due up, and instead of pinch hitting Guillen, he leaves in Marcus who also has a poor AB that results in an out.

Both Thomas and Guillen replaced those guys after the 8th.

Then in the 11th - Inge leads off with a single, and Laird replaces Ryan to bunt. Laird successfully bunted Inge to second, for ... the mighty Adam Everett to hit. Everett flies out deep, advancing the runner, leaving it to Curtis Granderson. Wedge, predictably, brings in his side-arming lefty to take out Granderson, which he does, with a K.

Bunting a runner doesn't make a lot of sense when the next batter is Everett and the subsequent batter is Granderson with a lefty warming up in the bullpen. If Leyland doesn't understand this, I have a really hard time calling him a great manager. And this sort of stuff happens pretty frequently. Maybe 3 - 4 times a week.

All that written, I think pulling Porcello was the correct decision, and I have no beef with that.

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Changing pitchers is probably the biggest decision a manager makes that affects a game. It's not only pitch counts and effectiveness its also the game situation, who's coming up, who's fresh in the BP, what's the best matchup etc. Leyland has proven himself to be one of the best in MLB over the years. He certainly deserves the benefit of the doubt.

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Then in the 11th - Inge leads off with a single, and Laird replaces Ryan to bunt. Laird successfully bunted Inge to second, for ... the mighty Adam Everett to hit. Everett flies out deep, advancing the runner, leaving it to Curtis Granderson. Wedge, predictably, brings in his side-arming lefty to take out Granderson, which he does, with a K.

Bunting a runner doesn't make a lot of sense when the next batter is Everett and the subsequent batter is Granderson with a lefty warming up in the bullpen. If Leyland doesn't understand this, I have a really hard time calling him a great manager. And this sort of stuff happens pretty frequently. Maybe 3 - 4 times a week.

With Inge and his bad knee on first, I think he was trying to avoid the DP at all costs and eliminate a hard slide by Inge. Granted that Everett is not the guy you want to bat with the game on the line but I'd rather have 2 chances for a hit to win the game than 2 chances for a DP with Laird and Everett.

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It is a fruitless endeavor to sit around second guessing. We won. Let's be happy.

Yeah, I was ticked off last night when Fernando gave up the tying run, but in the cold light of morning I can see why Leyland pulled Rick after 8 innings.

And to me the most important thing about last night's game is: Porcello pitched like a champ. He had a few crappy outings before that, and I was worried he might have hit a wall.

But think about it: If Rick begins pitching well again, and Galarraga also keeps up his fine pitching over his last 4-5 starts -- in addition to Justin, Edwin and Mr. Washburn....well, the mind boggles.

If Rick and Armando hit their stride, then that's a darn good pitching staff, maybe the best in all of baseball.

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With Inge and his bad knee on first, I think he was trying to avoid the DP at all costs and eliminate a hard slide by Inge. Granted that Everett is not the guy you want to bat with the game on the line but I'd rather have 2 chances for a hit to win the game than 2 chances for a DP with Laird and Everett.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Leyland often bunts the runner from 1st to 2nd in close games, should the lead runner get on. Staying out of the DP is a nice ancillary benefit, but I don't think it was the reason why he did what he did.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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If Cletus knew how to play the outfield, Rodney would have gotten the save.

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I'm gonna wager that every fan board for every team has had this thread at some point in a season with their managers name instead of Leyland's.

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I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Leyland often bunts the runner from 1st to 2nd in close games, should the lead runner get on. Staying out of the DP is a nice ancillary benefit, but I don't think it was the reason why he did what he did.

A similar situation occured in the Chicago Sunday night game when the ESPN commentators were bemoaning the fact that with runners on first and second and no outs, Leyland was not making Guillen bunt. Guillen got the winning hit as you remember.

But to me the reason was clear. Take the bat out of Guillen's hands and Chicago would have loaded the bases to pitch to Everett. The situation he wanted to avoid on Sunday is the situation he orchestrated last night.

I may be wrong but I think he was trying to protect further injury to Inge.

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If Rodney gave up 1 more run in the 9th and we had lost that game last night, I know EXACTLY what Jim would have said in his post game comments.....

"It wasn't our pitching at all...what we need to do is hit better. The pitching was just fine.....we can't go out there and score 2 runs night after night and expect to win big league ballgames. We had plenty of chances to score more runs and we didn't get it done. It's not Porcello's fault and it certainly ain't Rodney's. Rodney blows one save all year - if we hit better during the game as a whole, it wouldn't matter. Can't keep leaving the bases loaded night after night and score 2 runs and expect to win big league games. What did we do - leave like 12 guys on base again tonight? That ain't Rodney's fault. We gotta take advantage of our opportunities and obviously we didn't do that here tonight. It wasn't the pitching at all. The pitching was just fine...."

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If Cletus knew how to play the outfield, Rodney would have gotten the save.

Yeah, there were lots of "what ifs" in this game. We had runners on 2nd and 3rd and someone hit a blistering shot, but right at the 2nd baseman. That would've been two runs right there, and if we'd gotten them, it would've rendered that 9th inning run insignificant.

We won, so I'm happy. Now let's take the series today.

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A similar situation occured in the Chicago Sunday night game when the ESPN commentators were bemoaning the fact that with runners on first and second and no outs, Leyland was not making Guillen bunt. Guillen got the winning hit as you remember.

But to me the reason was clear. Take the bat out of Guillen's hands and Chicago would have loaded the bases to pitch to Everett. The situation he wanted to avoid on Sunday is the situation he orchestrated last night.

I may be wrong but I think he was trying to protect further injury to Inge.

I have no clue what Leyland is thinking, but I don't think he had Guillen bunt for two reasons:

1. it was Guillen and

2. Carlos had just cameback from rehab assignment after a long lay-off of not swinging a bat, so I don't know if Carlos had practiced bunting much recently.

As to the rest - Leyland bunts fairly often. It wouldn't surprise me if the Tigers bunt twice as much as their opposition. And it seems to me fairly uncommon that a GIDP leads to the lead runner trying to take out the 2nd baseman or shortstop. So these two things lead me to believe it was a typical Leyland 'National League manager' response to the situation rather than an attempt to protect Inge (and if he were so concerned about Inge, he could, you know, simply not play him).

And I don't understand why against Chicago, Leyland wouldn't want Everett to come up with the bases loaded (is this true, BTW?), but he was OK with Everett coming up last night with a runner on second and Granderson to follow with a lefty warming up.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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Yeah, there were lots of "what ifs" in this game. We had runners on 2nd and 3rd and someone hit a blistering shot, but right at the 2nd baseman. That would've been two runs right there, and if we'd gotten them, it would've rendered that 9th inning run insignificant.

We won, so I'm happy. Now let's take the series today.

My big what if is this - in the 6th when the Tigers scored on Cabrera's single, it seemed to me that Ordonez could have advanced to 3rd fairly easily, but he didn't, which anchored Cabrera at 1st (I think Cabrera could have gotten to 2nd as well). The pitcher then threw a wild pitch, which advanced the runners to 2nd and 3rd. Had Ordonez been on third, he would have scored on the wild pitch, which would have been the third run.

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My big what if is this - in the 6th when the Tigers scored on Cabrera's single, it seemed to me that Ordonez could have advanced to 3rd fairly easily, but he didn't, which anchored Cabrera at 1st (I think Cabrera could have gotten to 2nd as well). The pitcher then threw a wild pitch, which advanced the runners to 2nd and 3rd. Had Ordonez been on third, he would have scored on the wild pitch, which would have been the third run.

I also don't understand how Ordonez didn't make it to third on that hit to the corner of LF. Also, how he didn't beat out that place at first in the 4th... Magglio needs to either start jogging/ sprinting immediately or pick up his game a little bit. I'm thinking the latter.

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I also don't understand how Ordonez didn't make it to third on that hit to the corner of LF. Also, how he didn't beat out that place at first in the 4th... Magglio needs to either start jogging/ sprinting immediately or pick up his game a little bit. I'm thinking the latter.

Magglio needs a hoveround to run the bases and play the outfield.

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Magglio is either incredibly slow or just lazy, he's been out about 10 times this year on close plays at first where it looks like he's just having a leisurely jog down to 1st.

As for bunting, the Tigers have used the sacrifice bunt 38 times this year, that's more than every other AL team except the Mariners (44) it's more than the Twins (31), the Angels (28), and for comparison the fewest bunts belong to the Orioles (9)

Considering we bunt more than the Twins and Angels, I wonder when Detroit will get known as a pesky, scrappy, gritty team.

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Magglio is either incredibly slow or just lazy, he's been out about 10 times this year on close plays at first where it looks like he's just having a leisurely jog down to 1st.

As for bunting, the Tigers have used the sacrifice bunt 38 times this year, that's more than every other AL team except the Mariners (44) it's more than the Twins (31), the Angels (28), and for comparison the fewest bunts belong to the Orioles (9)

Considering we bunt more than the Twins and Angels, I wonder when Detroit will get known as a pesky, scrappy, gritty team.

Basd upon how many close games they play and howmany times they seem to comeback from the dead..the Tigers can be calssified as scrappy..

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You can't win as a manager unless you win it all. Jim could leave the starter in there and if he blows up in the ninth it's Jim's fault. If he pulls him and the closer blows it in the ninth, again it's Jim's fault. It's real easy to armchair manage after the fact but the reality no one here is doing that job or ever has at the major league level. So until Sparky Anderson becomes a forum member (an actual major league manager) everyone who belittles Leyland is talking out of their ***. JMO...and that don't mean much.

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You can't win as a manager unless you win it all. Jim could leave the starter in there and if he blows up in the ninth it's Jim's fault. If he pulls him and the closer blows it in the ninth, again it's Jim's fault. It's real easy to armchair manage after the fact but the reality no one here is doing that job or ever has at the major league level. So until Sparky Anderson becomes a forum member (an actual major league manager) everyone who belittles Leyland is talking out of their ***. JMO...and that don't mean much.

You are absolutely right. Since none of us have ever managed a MLB team, then Leyland should get a free pass on all of his managerial decisions here. And since none of of have played in the majors or been a GM, there should be no critiquing of players or DD either.

In fact, there shouldn't be a message board at all, since we are just talking out our ***.

**EDIT**: With regards to your bolded comment, my complaints raised in this thread were raised in my head at the time the game was transpiring. So my criticisms aren't based on, or informed by, knowing the outcomes.

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth

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Who should be the 9th inning guy besides the dude that has only blown one save all season?

If he can control his FB like last night, Rodney should be the guy. If not Lyon should be.

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If he can control his FB like last night, Rodney should be the guy. If not Lyon should be.

Seeing as Lyon pitched 3 innings on Friday, pitching him on Saturday in the 9th really wasn't an option.

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I'm not completely on the Rodney bandwagon quite yet for being a bonifide closer; however, I do like having a pitcher with a SO pitch in his arsenal. Lyon is good at providing solid pitching to contact, which can be dangerous against pesky teams like the Angels or Twins come playoff time for scattering and playing smallball in the 9th.

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I thought we were talking long term.

Ahh..didn't get that.

At this point, I think Rodney is solidly the closer and Lyon the 8th inning pitcher / set-up. I have no beef with either of those guys, and I think those are the correct roles for them. Actually, I think the bullpen is shaping up nicely. Nothing awesome, mind you, but not as bad as some suggest.

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I think our lack of runs scored has cost us more games than Leyland pulling starters.

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