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Leyland pulling starters has cost the Tigers to many games this year

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I'll say it once and I'll say it again, Jim Leyland is a great manager, but he's pulled starters to many times this year when he should have allowed them to finish games. I can think of 3 games and will find a few more. What can you remember.

April 7th at Toronto: Jackson pitches 7 innings and allows 1 run with a lead. Tigers blow the game in the 8th inning

June 5th vs Angels: Verlander shuts the Angels down for 8 innings with a 1-0 lead. Angels score 2 in the 9th and win 2-1.

July 22 vs Seattle: Galarraga pitches 8 innings of shut out ball with a 1-0 lead and Seattle scores two in the 9th to win it.

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I'm just going to post what I posted in the game thread here:

April 7 vs. Blue Jays: Jackson had 89 through 7 1/3. That's low. I might give this one to you. But 90 pitches right after Spring Training breaks is pretty standard. I bet if you look around the league that day, you won't see many starters throwing 100 or more. It'd take Jackson 115 to complete the game at that point. And at that point in the season, he hadn't really earned to trust to do that yet.

July 22 vs. Seattle: No, Galarraga was at 111 pitches through 7.1 innings. If he were to finish that, he'd be at 135 easily. And this is all after a stretch of him just absolutely sucking, too. No manager in baseball would have let him finish this game.

June 5th vs. Angels: No, Verlander was at 119 through 8 innings. He'd be at 140 if he were to finish it. No way.

You've got one, and I think even on that one you can make an argument in favor of Leyland's decision to pull him. Let's see more.

Also, regarding the Galarraga game, you're not being honest. You said he went 8 innings. He went 7.1. Now, 8=/=7.1.

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All managers pull starters early in the 21st century. You could make the case that pitchers should be allowed to pitch longer than they do but I don't know if you can blame Leyland for doing the same thing that everyone does. In general, I actually think Leyland lets starters throw more pitches than most managers do.

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All managers pull starters early in the 21st century. You could make the case that pitchers should be allowed to pitch longer than they do but I don't know if you can blame Leyland for doing the same thing that everyone does. In general, I actually think Leyland lets starters throw more pitches than most managers do.

Verlander has the longest leach by about a pitch and a half of any starter in the game at almost 110 a game. Jackson's around 106. None of the other starters are good enough (Galarraga) or old enough (Porcello) to warrant deeper counts.

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I'll say it once and I'll say it again, Jim Leyland is a great manager, but he's pulled starters to many times this year when he should have allowed them to finish games. I can think of 3 games and will find a few more. What can you remember.

April 7th at Toronto: Jackson pitches 7 innings and allows 1 run with a lead. Tigers blow the game in the 8th inning

June 5th vs Angels: Verlander shuts the Angels down for 8 innings with a 1-0 lead. Angels score 2 in the 9th and win 2-1.

July 22 vs Seattle: Galarraga pitches 8 innings of shut out ball with a 1-0 lead and Seattle scores two in the 9th to win it.

They are an equal amount of posters who blame Leyland for keeping effective starters in too long. Of course, they only say that when the effective starter blows it.

Leyland is smarter than you.

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That's why relief pitching is a whole industry unto itself these days. You've got to expect these guys will do their job.

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I don't know why you guys hate Jimmy so bad. Is it because he smokes? Because he doesn't live based on how your religious beliefs lay? Because last time I checked, he's managed a horrible team to first place.

Sit and think about that for a second.

A HORRIBLE team ... you've all said it ... you've all bitched about it.

And yet, we still sit in first place. And **** you if you bring up that the central is a waste land of a division. Still in first.

KC isn't.

Indians aren't.

Twins? Nope.

Sux, uh uh.

The Detroit ****ing Tigers are in first place. And Its BECAUSE of Jimmy Leyland.

Eat that up.

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Leyland said he would've let Verlander or Jackson attempt to finish it. But he didn't want to hurt the kid's confidence and Rodney was perfect. It was a questionable decision but not an awful one.

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I don't know why you guys hate Jimmy so bad. Is it because he smokes? Because he doesn't live based on how your religious beliefs lay? Because last time I checked, he's managed a horrible team to first place.

Sit and think about that for a second.

A HORRIBLE team ... you've all said it ... you've all bitched about it.

And yet, we still sit in first place. And **** you if you bring up that the central is a waste land of a division. Still in first.

KC isn't.

Indians aren't.

Twins? Nope.

Sux, uh uh.

The Detroit ****ing Tigers are in first place. And Its BECAUSE of Jimmy Leyland.

Eat that up.

Thank you! Well said on behalf of believers like me... (or Kool-Aid drinkers if preferred):happy:

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I think Leyland is a darn good manager, and I think he's done a marvelous job this season with a flawed team.

But tonight I thought Porcello should have finished the game, or at least started the 9th, and if he gave up a hit/walk, THEN bring in the closerr. The Indians just couldn't hit Rick tonight, so why change in a 2-1 game? I realize relievers are supposed to do their jobs, but there's no law that says you have to bring in the closer in that situation. If I'm not mistaken, Porcello had less than 90 pitches. There was no reason not to give him the opportunity to finish that game.

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Leyland usually leaves starters in too long, not the opposite. (I agree about tonight though)

Of course, perhaps if he hadn't left in Magglio to bat vs a righty with 2 guys on (and then REPLACED HIM IMMEDIATELY DEFENSIVELY ANYWAY) and then had no one warming with Miner blowing the game I would cut him a bit more slack for not letting Porcello finish the game.

And of course if Clete Thomas catches the triple then Leyland is a genius.

Also I do like Jim Leyland, he seems like a cool guy and I enjoy having him on the Tigers, that doesn't mean he doesn't make lots of idiotic decisions that I hate though. Lots of bad managers have had winning teams, Joe Torre is a complete idiot and look at what he accomplished. I think it's pretty hard to mess up Verlander and Jackson this year.

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I think Leyland is a darn good manager, and I think he's done a marvelous job this season with a flawed team.

But tonight I thought Porcello should have finished the game, or at least started the 9th, and if he gave up a hit/walk, THEN bring in the closerr. The Indians just couldn't hit Rick tonight, so why change in a 2-1 game? I realize relievers are supposed to do their jobs, but there's no law that says you have to bring in the closer in that situation. If I'm not mistaken, Porcello had less than 90 pitches. There was no reason not to give him the opportunity to finish that game.

He was at 91 pitches. I said in the game thread that if I were manager, he'd have 105 to finish it. His arm wasn't going to get wrecked on a bunch of 13 pitch, low stress innings tonight. Bringing Rodney in was the safe move, but I almost always favor a pitcher who is stifling an offense over bringing in the next guy. Mark Grace will say after 7 dominant innings from some pitcher, "anyone but this guy." There might be something to that.

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I don't know why you guys hate Jimmy so bad. Is it because he smokes? Because he doesn't live based on how your religious beliefs lay? Because last time I checked, he's managed a horrible team to first place.

Sit and think about that for a second.

A HORRIBLE team ... you've all said it ... you've all bitched about it.

And yet, we still sit in first place. And **** you if you bring up that the central is a waste land of a division. Still in first.

KC isn't.

Indians aren't.

Twins? Nope.

Sux, uh uh.

The Detroit ****ing Tigers are in first place. And Its BECAUSE of Jimmy Leyland.

Eat that up.

So the Tigers are in 1st place because of Leyland and not because of Verlander and Jackson and that very good pitching staff.

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Jim is my Adopt a Tiger. Like I always used to say when Sparky was here, managers are always going to be second guessed. I'm just glad we get to second guess a great one.

Tonight, I'd have left Rick P in. If he gave up a hit, or was laboring, he could have always been removed. I've never been a fan of this default managing style of nearly always bringing in closers. But that's not just Jim Leyland, that's the way it's done these days all over baseball.

Oh, and Eric - you made good points earlier, but I don't know how you can say Justin gets to 140 pitches back on June 5th. He had 119 through 8 innings, or an average of 14.875 per inning. Call it 15. 119+15=134 - not 140. To hit 140 pitches, he'd have had to pitch 29% more pitches than what he had averaged that day in the 9th inning. Unlikely. And again, you can always trot the SP out there - and if he's laboring or giving up a hit or a walk - you can always pull him then.

The one thing we as fans never know is exactly how the SP is feeling - what the conversation is between him and Jim, if there are other issues going on, etc..... But overall, I think bringing in a closer just because "it's time to bring him in" is a lousy way to manage, and I am sorry to see that it's now a universal trait across MLB. It's certainly not a "Leyland" thing.

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I don't know why you guys hate Jimmy so bad. Is it because he smokes? Because he doesn't live based on how your religious beliefs lay? Because last time I checked, he's managed a horrible team to first place.

Sit and think about that for a second.

A HORRIBLE team ... you've all said it ... you've all bitched about it.

And yet, we still sit in first place. And **** you if you bring up that the central is a waste land of a division. Still in first.

KC isn't.

Indians aren't.

Twins? Nope.

Sux, uh uh.

The Detroit ****ing Tigers are in first place. And Its BECAUSE of Jimmy Leyland.

Eat that up.

The Tigers are in first place due to pitching and defense. I wouldn't say it's because of Jim Leyland.

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Rick Porcello is only 20-years-old. He is not conditioned to throw a lot of pitches. It is myopic to think about one game rather than the big picture. I like how he has been handled. There is no reason for him to be pushed to throw a complete game at this point in his career.

I didn't have a problem with Leyland's decision to pull Porcello. And I agree with the posters who say that Leyland usually leaves his starters in the game too long. Last time I checked, Verlander led MLB in pitcher abuse points and Jackson was fourth. So, Leyland is working his starters harder than any other manager in the game, and people are complaining about him pulling starters too early? :confused:

Edited by tigersrok

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I blame the bullpen more than Leyland for those blown wins. The Tigers need to move on from Zumaya and Rodney being their 8th and 9th inning guy. Up to this point, we haven't had other options. Now, I think we do.

I do think you can make a good case tonight that Porcello should have been allowed to go the distance.

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I blame the bullpen more than Leyland for those blown wins. The Tigers need to move on from Zumaya and Rodney being their 8th and 9th inning guy. Up to this point, we haven't had other options. Now, I think we do.

I do think you can make a good case tonight that Porcello should have been allowed to go the distance.

Who should be the 9th inning guy besides the dude that has only blown one save all season?

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I blame the bullpen more than Leyland for those blown wins. The Tigers need to move on from Zumaya and Rodney being their 8th and 9th inning guy. Up to this point, we haven't had other options. Now, I think we do.

I do think you can make a good case tonight that Porcello should have been allowed to go the distance.

Who has more blown saves this season, Mariano Rivera or Fernando Rodney??

Move on..Zumaya we moved on and moved him to the operating room..he isn't returning any time soon.

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I blame the bullpen more than Leyland for those blown wins. The Tigers need to move on from Zumaya and Rodney being their 8th and 9th inning guy. Up to this point, we haven't had other options. Now, I think we do.

I do think you can make a good case tonight that Porcello should have been allowed to go the distance.

Rodney is our closer. One blown save all year? Yeah, he's the guy.

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I blame the bullpen more than Leyland for those blown wins. The Tigers need to move on from Zumaya and Rodney being their 8th and 9th inning guy. Up to this point, we haven't had other options. Now, I think we do.

I do think you can make a good case tonight that Porcello should have been allowed to go the distance.

If it's any other starting pitcher for the Tigers, they go out there.

However, Porcello has averaged 15.9 pitches an inning this season. If he goes out there again and has an "average" inning, that puts him at 107 pitches. He's at around 88 pitches per start. Is it worth the risk of not only hurting his arm, but putting him back out there in a one run game when he will almost certainly surpass his season highs and could be fatigued?

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It is a fruitless endeavor to sit around second guessing. We won. Let's be happy.

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Rick Porcello is only 20-years-old. He is not conditioned to throw a lot of pitches. It is myopic to think about one game rather than the big picture. I like how he has been handled. There is no reason for him to be pushed to throw a complete game at this point in his career.

I didn't have a problem with Leyland's decision to pull Porcello. And I agree with the posters who say that Leyland usually leaves his starters in the game too long. Last time I checked, Verlander led MLB in pitcher abuse points and Jackson was fourth. So, Leyland is working his starters harder than any other manager in the game, and people are complaining about him pulling starters too early? :confused:

I agree with this 100%.

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