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ronniereb

This is getting frustrating

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I understand the fear of mortgaging the future but it is July 31, the Tigers are in first place and it appears we may be doing nothing to improve our chances. Obviously the rotation is not what it was with Porcello now struggling, Zumaya out for the season has dealt a significant blow to the bullpen, and the offense obviously needs help. We need to fill some holes or we are going to have problems maintaining first place. It is so frustrating to go to all the rumor websites and barely see the Tigers mentioned. I know there is 8 hours left but I fear nothing is going to happen and the chance of winning a division does not come around every year in this town.

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If the right trade is out there for the right guy, I'd be all for it. But I wouldn't make a trade just to make a trade.

As I said in the other thread: If the Tigers get hot at the right time, they can compete with anybody in baseball with the team they have now. And if they go into one of their teamwide funks, even Albert Pujols won't make the difference. After all, a hitter only comes up one-ninth of the time.

I'm hoping DD can either pull of a GOOD trade, or that Grandy, Maggs, Polanco and Cabrera can revert to some semblence of their career norms in the second half.

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Actually, after sleeping on it for a night I would have done that Halladay deal. Porcello, going to be good- but great? Perry is replaceable and Crosby unproven for the best pitcher in baseball, arguably? Absolutely, done deal.

You make a good point ronniereb- we're in first place, albeit by a shoestring, but it feels quite different than so.

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If Halladay were 3-4 years younger and signed for another 3-4 years, I'd do the trade. As it stands now, if we make that trade, it's win the World Series in 09 or 10 or bust.

Someone made a good point in another thread: Even if we did sign Roy after we traded for him, that means we likely wouldn't have enough left over to also sign Verlander and Jackson.

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If we were 3-5 games out I'd understand being cautious and not wanting to take a chance, but we are in first place and I believe have little hope of remaining unless we upgrade. It's OK to support your team and believe that they will start coming around, but I think if we are honest with ourselves we'll see that possibility is remote. I know this team has been burned in the past by the Smoltz deal, but that deal did send us to the playoffs for one of only 4 times in my lifetime, and the Tigers were so bad through the nineties whose to say that having Smoltz would have made any difference. I still think getting Hallday would have been a coup and despite losing some prospects who have no guarantee would still have 2 pithcers in their mid 20's to build with and if necessary could trade Halladay next year for more.

I also think David Chadd has proved he can draft so we start replacing some of those prospects next year

Edited by ronniereb

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Obviously the rotation is not what it was with Porcello now struggling,

I disagree totally with this statement. Porcello has been struggling since before the All-Star break, yet the Tigers' team pitching stats remain solidly in second place in the AL. Just some highlights, in case you've forgotten:

Tigers have the second lowest ERA in the AL

Are tied for the league lead in shutouts at 7

Have given up the second fewest hits

Have the second fewest hit batters

Have given up the least runs and earned runs in the AL!

On the less than positive side:

They've given up the most walks, are only middle of the pack in strikeouts, homeruns allowed, complete games and save opportunities. They are also in the bottom tier in saves.

So at this point it is unfair to say that their rotation is not what it once was. Perhaps you can say that in another month, but not at this point.

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If Halladay were 3-4 years younger and signed for another 3-4 years, I'd do the trade. As it stands now, if we make that trade, it's win the World Series in 09 or 10 or bust.

Someone made a good point in another thread: Even if we did sign Roy after we traded for him, that means we likely wouldn't have enough left over to also sign Verlander and Jackson.

I think you're spot on here, tyrus.

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If Halladay were 3-4 years younger and signed for another 3-4 years, I'd do the trade. As it stands now, if we make that trade, it's win the World Series in 09 or 10 or bust.

Someone made a good point in another thread: Even if we did sign Roy after we traded for him, that means we likely wouldn't have enough left over to also sign Verlander and Jackson.

Good point. That may be the reason why, along with giving up the threesome.

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If Halladay were 3-4 years younger and signed for another 3-4 years, I'd do the trade. As it stands now, if we make that trade, it's win the World Series in 09 or 10 or bust.

Someone made a good point in another thread: Even if we did sign Roy after we traded for him, that means we likely wouldn't have enough left over to also sign Verlander and Jackson.

AND having Halladay still doesn't address THE biggest need of this team and that would be a solid cleanup hitter, who can protect Cabrera and allow him to relax and just hit the dang ball.

Also, to those that argue that we should have made that Halladay deal, lest we forget that Halladay has a full no trade clause and I seriously doubt that he would waive it to come to Detroit. We'll obviously never truly know, as it didn't progress that far from all reports. However, I find it highly unlikely that he would have come here.

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Toronto had said that would not even have discussions with teams that Halladay did not approve, so given they made an offer to us I'd guess we were on his approved list.

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If Halladay were 3-4 years younger and signed for another 3-4 years, I'd do the trade. As it stands now, if we make that trade, it's win the World Series in 09 or 10 or bust.

Someone made a good point in another thread: Even if we did sign Roy after we traded for him, that means we likely wouldn't have enough left over to also sign Verlander and Jackson.

If this were the case Toronto would not even consider trading him

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Toronto had said that would not even have discussions with teams that Halladay did not approve, so given they made an offer to us I'd guess we were on his approved list.

Didn't figure that out a couple days ago?

If this were the case Toronto would not even consider trading him

I have no idea what this means. Could you elaborate on that a little?

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If Halladay were 3-4 years younger and signed for 3-4 more years and was the dominate pitcher that he is he'd never be on the block, the fact that he's older and only signed through next year is the reason he is being shopped.

Edited by ronniereb
Misspell

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Sometimes, the BEST trade made is the one you didn't pull the trigger on..........

There is probably a LOT of that going on in the discussions. However, something tells me that DD is NOT (or doesn't have the bargaining chips to be) the GREAT negotiator I had hoped he was.......he has the MONEY behind him, but, is he actually a good negotiator, by keeping other teams on the hook long enough to get deals that would be palatable? I think not----

There is NO way I'd give the 3 named players for Halladay --- NO WAY ! so, on that grade, A+ for NOT making that trade!

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I'd give up Porcello + Iorg + Perry, but not both Porcello and Crosby, for Roy.

I do agree the Tigers need another SP and more bat in LF, to have any shot at

a WS title in 2009. If I had to pick one, I'd get a LF.

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I just hope, with whatever happens, if anything, the over-reactions can be held to a minimum.

I still remember when the Indians got Josh Barfield for Kouzmanoff that they apparently had sealed the next five World Series titles in a row, and Shapiro was hailed as a genius on here. Prospects are prospects...The Pirates have followed the bi-annual firesale for prospects school of thought, and it's gotten them absolutely nowhere. Porcello could go the route of Bonderman, but Halladay is a known commodity, and a freak of nature. In Comerica he'd be a machine.

Anytime you make a trade and get the best player in the deal at the time, I make it. As fans we'll have regrets obviously down the road (hopefully not), but what the hell == Jackson, Verlander, Halladay....get your playoff tickets now.

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I just hope, with whatever happens, if anything, the over-reactions can be held to a minimum.

I still remember when the Indians got Josh Barfield for Kouzmanoff that they apparently had sealed the next five World Series titles in a row, and Shapiro was hailed as a genius on here. Prospects are prospects...The Pirates have followed the bi-annual firesale for prospects school of thought, and it's gotten them absolutely nowhere. Porcello could go the route of Bonderman, but Halladay is a known commodity, and a freak of nature. In Comerica he'd be a machine.

Anytime you make a trade and get the best player in the deal at the time, I make it. As fans we'll have regrets obviously down the road (hopefully not), but what the hell == Jackson, Verlander, Halladay....get your playoff tickets now.

Amen I agree 100%

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I just hope, with whatever happens, if anything, the over-reactions can be held to a minimum.

I still remember when the Indians got Josh Barfield for Kouzmanoff that they apparently had sealed the next five World Series titles in a row, and Shapiro was hailed as a genius on here. Prospects are prospects...The Pirates have followed the bi-annual firesale for prospects school of thought, and it's gotten them absolutely nowhere. Porcello could go the route of Bonderman, but Halladay is a known commodity, and a freak of nature. In Comerica he'd be a machine.

Anytime you make a trade and get the best player in the deal at the time, I make it. As fans we'll have regrets obviously down the road (hopefully not), but what the hell == Jackson, Verlander, Halladay....get your playoff tickets now.

The entire thread is an overreaction

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Porcello, Perry & Crosby is too high a price to pay. The emotion of this season will be done in a couple of months, win or lose, & then we've got to think about the future. The thought of facing Porcello in the coming years scares me, add that to the fact that Halladay may test Free Agency after next year & I'm in the "Thanks but no thanks" camp.

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I'm not going to elaborate much more than I did in the other thread(s), but I just want to ask a question.

"Pitching and defense wins championships" gets thrown around a lot. And while defense is probably the single most important part, pitching helps a lot too. However, I don't remember any WS champs that didn't hit the ball. Can you guys think of any recent ones?

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The entire thread is an overreaction

Although I don't think DD should make a trade just for the sake of doing so, I don't agree this thread is an overreaction. I can understand the frustration some people feel.

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I'm not going to elaborate much more than I did in the other thread(s), but I just want to ask a question.

"Pitching and defense wins championships" gets thrown around a lot. And while defense is probably the single most important part, pitching helps a lot too. However, I don't remember any WS champs that didn't hit the ball. Can you guys think of any recent ones?

There was an interesting article about this on the Hardball Times site. The author came to this conclusion:

Good pitching beats good hitting ... except when it doesn't.

Does good pitching beat good hitting in October? -- The Hardball Times

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I'm not going to elaborate much more than I did in the other thread(s), but I just want to ask a question.

"Pitching and defense wins championships" gets thrown around a lot. And while defense is probably the single most important part, pitching helps a lot too. However, I don't remember any WS champs that didn't hit the ball. Can you guys think of any recent ones?

The 2006 St. Louis Cardinals. :dead:

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