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Stormin' Norman

How good is Martin Mayhew?

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He's gotten players for guy's we were going to cut

I absolutely hate the Anthony Henry transaction and don't think this is something that Mayhew should be lauded on. He traded essentially nothing for the right to pay Anthony Henry $3.6M this season. They should've just cut Kitna and if they wanted Henry sign him for something much more inline with his market value. I can't believe there would've been too much competition on the open market for him at age 33.

The Cowboys were going to cut Henry as he was going to be the 4th corner at the very best in 2009 behind Newman, Jenkins, Scandrick. They realized it would be silly to pay $3.6M for a 33 year old backup. The Lions bring him in slotting him at corner but keeping options open that he can move to safety if he's too old to handle corner anymore. I've got to assume the safety option is out after the Delmas selection since paying that kind of money for a 3rd or 4th string player that isn't in the longterm plans doesn't seem like a good idea. I'm hoping that camp starts and he's not better at corner than King, Smith, Hicks, Wynn, or whoever and ends up getting cut. I see horrible things from this guy especially if they want to play more man coverage.

This reminds me alot of the failed Brian Kelly experiment, who by the way was also a starter for a near playoff team the season prior to joining the Lions, and we all saw how it played out putting a CB that was a year too old out on the field.

IMO, He's not even close to the "Right Player, Right Price" mantra that Mayhew used to justify all of his offseason moves included his choice to pass on Nate Washington, Jabari Greer, Chris Carr, and a few others during the 1st part of FA.

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I absolutely hate the Anthony Henry transaction and don't think this is something that Mayhew should be lauded on. He traded essentially nothing for the right to pay Anthony Henry $3.6M this season. They should've just cut Kitna and if they wanted Henry sign him for something much more inline with his market value. I can't believe there would've been too much competition on the open market for him at age 33.

The Cowboys were going to cut Henry as he was going to be the 4th corner at the very best in 2009 behind Newman, Jenkins, Scandrick. They realized it would be silly to pay $3.6M for a 33 year old backup. The Lions bring him in slotting him at corner but keeping options open that he can move to safety if he's too old to handle corner anymore. I've got to assume the safety option is out after the Delmas selection since paying that kind of money for a 3rd or 4th string player that isn't in the longterm plans doesn't seem like a good idea. I'm hoping that camp starts and he's not better at corner than King, Smith, Hicks, Wynn, or whoever and ends up getting cut. I see horrible things from this guy especially if they want to play more man coverage.

This reminds me alot of the failed Brian Kelly experiment, who by the way was also a starter for a near playoff team the season prior to joining the Lions, and we all saw how it played out putting a CB that was a year too old out on the field.

IMO, He's not even close to the "Right Player, Right Price" mantra that Mayhew used to justify all of his offseason moves included his choice to pass on Nate Washington, Jabari Greer, Chris Carr, and a few others during the 1st part of FA.

None of that money is guaranteed, until after the first game of the year. It's no big deal, they have plenty of cap room for that. It will help them with next year's cap.

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Right around 30 - meaning most have two-four years left in this league. But with the talent of Calvin Johnson and Matthew Stafford' date=' building an offensive identity makes more sense than trying to build both sides of the ball. A focused attack is always more effective than a trying to address every issue at once. [/quote']

Don't forget about Pettigrew. IMHO, he will be a star in the NFL.

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None of that money is guaranteed, until after the first game of the year. It's no big deal, they have plenty of cap room for that. It will help them with next year's cap.

Henry has a $1M roster bonus due in June. If he plays semi-decently at corner in camp and they chose to keep him it'll cost $3.6M instead of lets say $1.4 they'll pay Eric King for a similar role.

Let's not brush off the money like it's no big deal. If they have plenty of cap room and it's no big deal then why didn't they step up and sign Nate Washington (6yr/$27M - $9M Guaranteed) over Bryant Johnson (3yr/$9M -? G) or Jabari Greer (4yr/$23M - $10MG) over Phillip Buchanon (2ys/$8.5M - ?G). Money played a huge role with Mayhew backing off these guys.

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Don't forget about Pettigrew. IMHO, he will be a star in the NFL.

I agree, but I think his value with be more tied to his blocking and pass catching ability more than strictly yards like Gates and Gonzalez. I don't think Pettigrew will be regarded by a lot of "fans" of football as a great player.

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As an Assistant GM, a complete failure. That's the only thing we know for certain. In 5 years, we'll grade him as a GM.

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Henry has a $1M roster bonus due in June. If he plays semi-decently at corner in camp and they chose to keep him it'll cost $3.6M instead of lets say $1.4 they'll pay Eric King for a similar role.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I alwyas thought that in a trade, the team that trades a player away has to pay all of his bonuses, so we're only on the hook for his base salary. Just like how we're eating Redding's bonuses and Seattle is eating Peterson's.

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Maybe I'm wrong here, but I alwyas thought that in a trade, the team that trades a player away has to pay all of his bonuses, so we're only on the hook for his base salary. Just like how we're eating Redding's bonuses and Seattle is eating Peterson's.

That's true with a signing bonus. The initial team pays it and it stays on their cap as dead money after the player is gone. The money due Henry is a roster bonus which is a different type of compensation.

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As an Assistant GM, a complete failure. That's the only thing we know for certain. In 5 years, we'll grade him as a GM.

Do you have a list of what he did as the Assistant GM? Information that he brought in that Millen green lighted that failed? Otherwise you are just making stuff up.

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in the short view, based on the information that we have, Mayhew would appear to be ahead in this race. In the longview, I would think we are on the better end also as most of the players we are talking about are all on the twighlight of thier careers, while the Lions are going younger, (for the most part).

Having said all that, I want to commend you on a very well written thought out post.

It did my heart good to read something like that here. They are gonna call you a homer, so what at least you appear to still like your team unlike so many on this board.

Go Lions. I'm with ya man.

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Both Pioli and Mayhew went out and acquired "their guy" at Quarterback. Mayhew will end up paying his guy more' date=' but Cassel is making more than Stafford for 2009. While Cassel has more NFL experience than Stafford, no one can argue who the more talented QB is.[/quote']

Define "talent." The ability to throw the ball a long way? Yeah, Stafford wins. The ability to accurately throw the ball to your receiver? I think that's debatable. I really think you're incapable of looking objectively at Matt Stafford. Might he work out? Yeah. Is he a sure thing? Absolutely not.

Is Cassel a "safer bet" than Stafford? All my Stafford love aside, I am not sure. Cassel had success last year playing with an offensive group that the year previously was the best in NFL history. While Cassel put up pretty good numbers, nothing he did was extraordinary.

He completed over 63% of his passes in the NFL, which is something Matt Stafford was never able to do in college. You were bragging before of how great Stafford was in a bowl game where he went 9-23 with a couple picks. But Cassell throws for over 400 yards in the NFL more than once and leads the Patriots to an 11-5 season and he's done nothing extraordinary?

Other than Randy Moss and Tom Brady, the Patriots have pretty average talent on offense. But they have a good system and an accurate QB that knows how to run it. Matt Stafford had as much talent as any team he played save for possibly Florida and LSU and he still underachieved at Georgia.

He rarely hit Randy Moss on the deep ball and the majority of his yards came after the catch.

So?

Stafford's intelligence seems to match his talent - while it's hard to read too much from a three day rookie camp, it sounds like he had a rather impressive showing.

Based on what? Some fluff piece about rookie mini-camp? That's ridiculous. I also read he was inaccurate on his deep passes during mini-camp and wasn't that impressive. I suppose that just means he doesn't have the intelligence to compete. Silliness.

Both teams made noteworthy trades. Pioli acquired Cassel, along with Vrable, for a 2nd round draft pick; he also traded an icon in Tony Gonzales for a second round pick in 2010. Mayhew traded Redding and a 5th for a Pro Bowl linebacker. Kitna was traded for a starting cornerback. If you want to include the Roy Williams trade, Mayhews resume looks more impressive still.

Mayhew made some better trades on paper.

Both teams addressed the defense. The Chiefs couldn't get any pressure on the QB (last in the league in sacks), so they added Zach Thomas to help Vrable build a defense. The Lions added two starting CB's from Playoff-caliber teams, along with Peterson, Foote and old Grady Jackson. The Chiefs first two draft picks were for 3-4 defensive ends, a year after drafting Glenn Dorsey (a DE in a 3-4).

Draw because of Peterson. The other guys added by the Lions are nothing but retreads and bad players. The Chiefs got the #1 3-4 defensive end in the league to add to Glen Dorsey.

The bright spots of both offenses last year was the play of a star receiver - though there is little doubt in whose receiver is superior. While neither team made a huge free agent signing offensively (though I think Bryant Johnson and Ronald Curry have more gas left than Bobby Engram), the Lions did give their newly acquired QB a big weapon in Brandon Pettigrew. While I doubt there will be any major roster changes for the Lions offensively, the Chiefs may dump Larry Johnson before the season starts.

The Lions added Pettigrew. Ok.s

Of course roster building wasn't the only project these two men had this offseason - they had to build their coaching staffs. Jim Schwartz and Todd Hayley are both first time coaches. Schwartz built one of the best defenses last year and is widely regarded as one of the most intelligent men in football - Todd Hayley had a successful year with Arizona, though wasn't smart enough to call a fade pass to Larry Fitz before Halftime in the Super Bowl.

This is kind of emblematic of your whole post. The Lions made a great move and, well, the guy the Chiefs hired sucks (even though he was on a team that went to the super bowl, unlike the guy the Lions hired).

What a biased look at the Lions. I'm willing to bet a lot of money that if the Lions hadn't picked Stafford #1, your view of every other move they made suddenly shifts 180 degrees.

Evaluating the work these two men have made as first year GM's - Mayhew is destroying Pioli.

Impossible to make that analysis. It's based on nothing but love for Matt Stafford, nothing else.

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If Mayhew drafts Curry #1 overall, he loses some credibility by paying top dollar for a position that was addressed earlier in the off season, and making a sure fire prospect into a project by moving him to a different position. Avoiding the temptation to acquiesce to the fans gives him some credibility.

We've had too many "Fan favorite" drafts.

I also like the hiring of what appears to be a competent coaching staff. Schwartz is a true player evaluator, and does appear to be reforming he way players are scouted. He hired two former Head Coaches to run the defense and offense, and to provide guidance on his path to coaching.

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The fact that Mayhew sat down WITH his coaches to discuss all draft options and made picks based on those coaches input makes him better than anything we have had in a long time.

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The fact that Mayhew sat down WITH his coaches to discuss all draft options and made picks based on those coaches input makes him better than anything we have had in a long time.

You don't think Millen sat down with his coaches? The guy had some bad drafts, but it wasn't because he didn't sit down with his coaches.

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You don't think Millen sat down with his coaches? The guy had some bad drafts, but it wasn't because he didn't sit down with his coaches.

No. I don't. I think he made the picks he wanted and in some cases, would pick a guy an individual coach wanted without considering what others thought.

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No. I don't. I think he made the picks he wanted and in some cases, would pick a guy an individual coach wanted without considering what others thought.

And in some cases he would pick guys that the coaches didn't want but he liked as in Stanton and Harrington.

He may have sat down with his coaches, but he didn't pick the guys they wanted. It's one thing to pick a wr or lb in the 6th or 7th that your coach doesn't want, it's another to pick a qb in the 1st or trading up in the 2nd that your coach doesn't want. I liked Mayhew's comment that if they weren't all in agreement, they wouldn't pick the player - not that they had to agree initially, but if one was still dead set against someone after the discussion, they would go a different direction. That is communicating and listening to coaches where you at least won't get picks like Stanton who are wasted not necessarily because of talent (even though he may be that also), but because his coach doesn't want him at all and never did.

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If Stafford fails, but Pettigrew and Delmas become Pro Bowlers, Levy becomes a capable middle linebacker, Hill becomes a solid DL I think this draft is still a great success. I don't think everything is 100% tied to Stafford. Obviously he will make a big difference, but he isn't the only thing Mayhew did.

Again, I wouldn't say Mayhew has done a terrific job, but I don't really know how he could have done much better.

Well, I think I left room for something like that stating if something incredible happens ..... otherwise it's hinged on Stafford. I think your statement right there pretty much summed up what I was saying. I think you were trying to disagree with me, but I think you presented the same scenario I did.

And you say he hasn't done a terrific job but don't know how he could've done better - how is that not saying he's done a terrific job. Pick a side. :classic: It's okay to think he did a great job regardless what I may say.

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Things along those lines... But... none of the above essentially changes what you are saying, in that it is the LONG-term health of the organization that matters, and not so much these early moves... So I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you... That if Mayhew/ Schwartz get us to 6 wins, great... but meaningless. It's if they can develop this team into a perennial 9-12 game winner that will be the TRUE measuring stick for them...

First off good responses to the "mediocre" thing, but that filled too much space, so I got rid of it here.

This paragraph probably sums up what I was trying to get across. I think a lot of people will think "man, this team won six games" and think of the season as a great success. That's how Lions' fans are. They will be looking for that light at the end of the tunnel and seeing it easier than they probably should. Anyone can develop a team (except Millen) to finish with mediocre records and occasionally peak with a winning record or even a playoff season before dropping back down. This organization's true test rests in its ability to get this squad to that 9-12 win bracket fairly consistently like you said, with the top years being a potential Super Bowl contender.

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He could have been tempted to target Aaron Curry. He could have been tempted to ignore signing veterans believing his team should be founded purely on young talent. He could have been tempted to target defense' date=' defense, defense after the historically bad performance last year.

All of those would have been mistakes for this team.[/quote']

Actually Curry was second on his list. They had a contract prepared with him before Stafford. So I don't know how "bad" that signing would've been.

And even I am not ignoring the fact that he had to sign some veterans as stop gaps. Every team has stop gaps and the Lions have more pressing needs than any other team. The Lions couldn't have fielded a team just trying to find 50-something youngers, so I really don't know what brownie points he gets for that.

And how would've targeting defense been such a poor decision? It is about 40% of football (if we assume that special teams is about 20%).

About Jim Schwartz - I'm sure there were other qualified people out there. I doubt that there was only one person that made absolute sense for this team.

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We took him #1 overall. We're paying him like a top 5 QB in the NFL. Why shouldn't I expect him to perform like that? This contract is 6 years. I don't care what he does in year 7. If we (Lions organization) didn't think he could be that, they shouldn't have paid him as such.

I agree with this.

I don't need Stafford to start the 1st game of this season.

I don't need Stafford to be Peyton Manning this season.

I don't need Stafford to be Peyton Manning next season.

I don't need Stafford to be a top 5 QB within the next 3 years.

BUT: I WOULD like to see him be considered in the Top 5 range of QB's somewhere in his 3rd or 4th seasons. I'd like to give him some time to develop into that, and will not consider him a bust until at least the end of year 4 if he is not producing to "near-enough" a top 5 QB... at that time.

If he gets near Top 5 QB consideration during, or prior, to year 3, I will consider that pure bonus.

I also agree with this.

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I disagree. The offense was 30th in yards per game and 27th in scoring' date=' so its not as if the Lions neglected a weakness to improve a strength.[/quote']

So you're saying that they had the third worst offense in the league last year.

Compare to the third worst defense in ever.

I like some of the things that have been done with the defense, but I really don't think a good argument can be made for the way they neglected to use more high picks on the defense than they did.

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The defense is returning three starters: Ernie Sims, Cliff Avril, and Daniel Bullocks.

Everyone else is either a new face or a former backup who didn't get a shot with Marinelli, and is being tested to see if they are ready to go.

We traded for Peterson in the off season, that was a huge plus.

We just signed a solid linebacker in Larry Foote, we signed Grady Jackson for the D-line. This defense has been almost completely turned around in the off season. To say they did nothing is ridiculous.

What more can they do? release players they signed during Free Agency? They used a 2nd, a 3rd, and a 4th on Defense, there was obviously a reason Maualuga was passed on by every team until the 36th spot. Was it a wise move by Detroit? we won't know until he plays.

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About Jim Schwartz - I'm sure there were other qualified people out there. I doubt that there was only one person that made absolute sense for this team.

I'm actually convinced that Schwartz was the best coach available on the open market last year, and will soon prove to be an elite NFL coach. I think he was Mayhew's best off-season acquisition.

After a couple of days, I was able to temper my anger of the first day of the draft with the idea that these guys will be playing for Schwartz, and I truly believe that he will get the best out of all of these players. All of them.

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Schwartz's strength is management, I think that is clear. He lets his coordinators do the teaching, and he handles the coordinators.

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I won't give Mayhew credit for Foote. I will give Foote credit for that - he actually wanted to be here and Mayhew didn't screw it up - Millen would have passed on him....

A different tack on this: Mayhew's drafting was brilliant knowing he had Pittsburgh by the berries and would get Foote for nothing more than a 1 year contract at a discount and not wasting one of his high draft picks on either of the flawed MLB's, who may or may not pan out.

Looking at his body of work so far, I dont know how Mayhew's performance can be judged as anything less than above average, bordering on spectacular when held against the light of the Russ Thomas and Matt Millen regimes of our recent past. The guy is answering questions and putting together a respectable roster from ashes.

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